Truth's Official Card Reworks

[shakey_snake]

I really like giving Taelord Deadly Strike.
I'm not so sure about the extra life though. Compare to Su bak na. Tea is a step slower, they have about the same attack, same defense, but Tae now gets his attack aura, flying disengague, plus an additional life, for a mere 20 points more. The extra life seems unnessecery, as does leaving his unfeature: disengage.

So, take the standard Tae, add Deadly Strike, and "normalize" his flying text and I think you've got a fairly compelling figure for 180 points.
His aura is as potent as ever, and his extra firepower thematically fits with the Minions, as well as making the Minion's Utgar's Orders power more useful.

[jcb231]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

great idea, truth!
But (I know this is a lot to ask) but instead of just making up changes to the official units, maybe you could incorporate some of the most-approved-of tweaks that the HS fans have come up with?

I would be SO down for perfectly-done cards by truth that fix some of the most glaring oversights and niggling things of the official units.

There was a big thread with many fantastic (and well-received) tweaks on HQ - I documented what I thought were the better recent ones with the ones we've all talked about before.

For example, Taelord would properly be costed differently. His Disengage Flight would be taken away (not that he ever had it, in my eyes) and he'd have a proportional cost related to the Army size - an extra 10 points for each hundred points above 100. So at 200 point army size, he's 90 points - 300 he's 100 - 400 he's 110 etc.

Your tweak of Sudema is way too aggressive, IMO. There's no way she's THAT off in costing/abilities.

What do you think of taking requests or if possible concensus tweaks and improving official cards?
Like giving the Gorillinators a Tree Swing power, fixing Thorgrim's aura to being +2 defense, etc?

I like Taelord having disengage....and that is the official word anyway from Hasbro. I think it helps to justify his cost. I do agree with you that the sliding scale cost was a great idea. I remember that folks said if we implemented it for Taelord it should be applied to Raelin as well, and I thought that was fair. Raelin is under-costed, so giving her a sliding scale would be a good idea.

Gorillinators having Tough, Sighting, and Tree Swing was a good combo, but I liked them just having Tough and Sighting the best.

Thorgrim I think is pretty good as is...rather than add +2 defense, why not knock his cost down slightly?

[jcb231]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

One rather obvious improvement would be to give Sir Denrick (univerally regarded as weak) a Knight Enhancement that increased the speed of Knights by 1 (the Knight's weakness is slow movement). That one's an open-and-shut case, IMO.

I agree that Denrick could be reimagined a bit....I wonder if a Knight movement boost would be all it takes. Possibly. Knight Leadership?

[jcb231]

Originally Posted by truth

Okay I put Sudema back at 140 but made it so she could stone stare from 5 away and attack after doing it.

Good call. Not being able to attack after Stone Staring is her biggest problem.

[reapersaurus]

OK - here goes:

1) First, there's no reason to increase Sudema's range by a paltry 1 space for no driving reason. Remember, the overriding concern with tweaks like these is typically to make the smallest possible change from the official units, for the largest possible benefit - and not just in effectiveness.... if you increase the effectiveness of the unit too much, there will have to be an attendant increase in points.
Like with the suggestion to give Carr Steath Dodge - why? He's plenty strong as is. Any increase in effectivness would require him to cost more. We're not just doing stronger versions of the official units, right, guys? W're trying to improve the units by making them more playable, more balanced, and more importantly more fun with the least possible amount of tweaks.

2) Taelord -
He is an example of "What is our goal with him?"
Do we want him priced right, or upped in power to be worth 180 points? Those are 2 different goals.
Myself, I would really like to see a version of Taelord that is compatible with the other Kyrie (all at 80 points).
This could simply be done by making his Flight normal (add the standard last sentence of Flight text) and adding "This extra attack die can not be modified by any other ability, like Deadly Strike."
Additionally/Alternatively, adding "His Aura only affects units with a Range of 1" would fix a lot of overpowering concerns.
If you wanted a sliding-scale Taelord, it is probably easiest to put a table on the card or somewhere. This is what I estimated his worth to be:
100 points in a 200 point army.
110 points in a 300 point army.
130 points in a 400 point army.
150 points in a 500 point army.
170 points in a 600 point army.
190 points in a 700 point army.
200 for 800 +
If you simply went with a "+10 points for each 100 army points", it would be OK until around 600 points armies get him on the cheap.

2a) Do we change Raelin similarly?
Naaa... passive powers are hard to abuse.
However, I believe that whatever change is decided upon, Taelord's and Raelin's Aura's should not be able to be modified by Deadly Strike abilities OR Shield of Valor abilities (of the Sentinels) - it screws up the game to allow disproportionate advantage to those 2 abilities - bad game design, in my strong and supported opinion. But I won't change anything, despite how convinced I am on this point, so....

3) Deathwalker 9000 decrease cost by 20 points to 120
4) Deathwalker 8000 decrease cost by 20 points to 110
5) Deathwalker 7000 – fix him . It doesn;t matter what's done - anything is better than it is now. Start with making it 70 points and see if anyone can blow up 100 points worth of units reguarly - until then, he's not worth investing order markers on.

6) Venoc Warlord: adds +2 to Viper’s Frenzy chance. (+1 is simply not enough to bother putting on a unit's ability for the most part - 5% isn't enough to bother with, statistically)

7) Thorgrimm:
DEFENSIVE AURA
All friendly figures adjacent to Thorgrim add 2 die to their defense. These dice cannot be used with any Counterstrike abilities and can not be modified (like with Shields of Valor).
WARRIOR'S ARMOR SPIRIT 1
When Thorgrim is destroyed, place this figure on any unique Army Card. Thorgrim's Spirit add 2 to the defense number on that card. These dice cannot be used with any Counterstrike abilities and can not be modified (like with Shields of Valor).

There would be an FAQ entry for Charos and the Izumi to "Roll Thorgrim's bonus defense dice seperately from their Counterstrike dice, to avoid confusion."

8 ) Tornak: raise life to 5. 3 is ridiculous, and not supported by other 100-point heroes’ stats.

9) Ne-Gok-Sa:
Raise his Mindshackle to 19 or 20, and give it a range of 3 or 4
Allow a hero (not a squad) to break free of the Mindshackle with a free roll at the beginning of the Round. 19 or 20 breaks free. Consider giving control back to opponent when he’s eliminated. Lower Defense to 4.

10) Zettian Guards consider lowering their cost. Maybe to 60. They aren’t drafted enough. Also make them a Common Squad (along with Tarn Vikings).

11) Su-Bak-Na – grant a ranged attack. (Bio-Fusion Rifle Special Attack : Range 6, Attack 4) It’s silly that the Marro Warriors have guns and he has a short little spear on the dragon’s back. Also grant Reach. And 1 more Life & 1 more Defense (total of 6 Life, 4 Defense). It's silly to spend that many points just to have him hide in the back, buffing other weaker Marros. He has to be able to be brought into combat and it be a smart move.

12) Sir Denrick – give him a Knight Enhancement : +1 to Knight’s Move and Defense.

13) Khosumet – make his +1 Wolf Enhancement a 4 space, LOS enhancement. It’s simply too hard to have him be adjacent, especially since the Dumetef Guard provides the same bonus.

14) Sentinels - change Height to 6 to match the Minions
15) Microcorp Agents - should have Height 4 to match the Krav Maga

16) Obsidian Guards – Lava meld: If an Obsidian Guard starts it's action in molten lava, it may automatically move to another empty molten lava space within 4 hexes instead of moving. The Obsidian Guard ignores any models, terrain or obstacles it must pass through to arrive at the new space but if engaged at the start of the move, it will take any leaving engagement attacks. If all their movement is in lava, they gain 3 spaces of movement (like roads).

17) Grimnak – grant Reach. (see Reach ability)

18 ) Mimring – consider lowering the cost by 10.
Grant Reach.
Use 8-space long string to determine what straight-line hexes the Fire Line affects.
Ice vulnerability – roll 1 less defense die against ice or cold-based attacks.
Fire Line tweak : If Mimring is on a Lava Field or Lava space, Mimring rolls one additional attack die.
If a defender is on a Lava Field or Lava space, that figure rolls one less defense die.

19) Nilfheim - Fire vulnerability – roll 1 less defense die against fire or heat-based attacks.
Ice Shard tweak : If Nilfheim is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, Nilfheim rolls one additional attack die.
If a defender is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, that figure rolls one less defense die.
Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement
Slippery Ice and Heavy Snow only count as 1 space when moving.

20) Gorillinators – reduce cost to 75.
Tree Swing : If a Gorillinator is adjacent to a tree, the Gorillinator may Tree Swing instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Gorillinators you control each turn. To Tree Swing, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that tree.

21) Johnny Shotgun – his duster doesn’t provide cover, regardless of what the hit zone shows. It’s not armor.

22) Parmenio & Sacred Band – either reduce their costs to 80 points & 45 points, or give Defy Death Aura 4
__________________________________

That's what I had in my document.
There are solid reasonings for almost all of these - some are personal preference - like desiring more terrain-specific modifiers, in the case of Mimring and Niflheim. I just think it's more important to have SOME modifiers to remember, than NO modifiers to remember - and Fire dragons benefitting from fire and being hurt by ice is just too RIGHT not to use if we can. And we can. As long as there's room on the card. These are mostly common-sense abilities, not new unique difficult abilities.

I could elaborate on most of these, and try to get across the reasoning and supported rationale for most, if anyone would like.
I don;t remember what Sighting was for the Gorillinators, thoguh.

[truth]

I don't know man, there is alot there I agree with, and alot I don't. I don't think THAT many cards deserve reworked versions for beginners. But I'll just start by working on the ones I wanted to get changed and disscussing the ideas you want to inccoperate on those ones.

I believe the designers got it right on most of these with the simple is good rule. There are just some cards I own that no one will pick because they are simply viewed as too weak compared to others. Those are the cards I've got picked out to change either in point cost or in power level.

[endpawn]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

However, I believe that whatever change is decided upon, Taelord's and Raelin's Aura's should not be able to be modified by Deadly Strike abilities OR Shield of Valor abilities (of the Sentinels) - it screws up the game to allow disproportionate advantage to those 2 abilities - bad game design, in my strong and supported opinion. But I won't change anything, despite how convinced I am on this point, so....

You really miss the concept of strategy altogether dont you. They are specifically intended to work better with Deadly Strike and Shield of Valor and yes when you are fighting against them you need to come up with some way to kill Raelin or Taelord first, then go after the other guys. Thank god you arent a game designer.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

6) Venoc Warlord: adds +2 to Viper’s Frenzy chance. (+1 is simply not enough to bother putting on a unit's ability for the most part - 5% isn't enough to bother with, statistically)

Frenzy boost is just fine as is and is a very powerful combo. You completely ignored the fact that +2 move makes vipers extremely fast. Its an extra 5%, not only 5% and it helps a lot.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

9) Ne-Gok-Sa:

Raise his Mindshackle to 19 or 20, and give it a range of 3 or 4
Allow a hero (not a squad) to break free of the Mindshackle with a free roll at the beginning of the Round. 19 or 20 breaks free. Consider giving control back to opponent when he’s eliminated. Lower Defense to 4.

Mind Shackle is a terrific ability and perfect the way it is. Ne-Gok-Sa doesnt need changed at all.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

18 ) Mimring – consider lowering the cost by 10.
Grant Reach.
Use 8-space long string to determine what straight-line hexes the Fire Line affects.
Ice vulnerability – roll 1 less defense die against ice or cold-based attacks.
Fire Line tweak : If Mimring is on a Lava Field or Lava space, Mimring rolls one additional attack die.
If a defender is on a Lava Field or Lava space, that figure rolls one less defense die.

19) Nilfheim - Fire vulnerability – roll 1 less defense die against fire or heat-based attacks.
Ice Shard tweak : If Nilfheim is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, Nilfheim rolls one additional attack die.
If a defender is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, that figure rolls one less defense die.
Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement
Slippery Ice and Heavy Snow only count as 1 space when moving.

Mimring and Nilfheim are highly useable and very well costed. The intention is to fix pieces that are under used or poorly costed. Not to throw in several specials you think are "cool".

Keep up the good work Truth all look well balanced and good so far.

[reapersaurus]

Originally Posted by endpawn

You really miss the concept of strategy altogether dont you. They are specifically intended to work better with Deadly Strike and Shield of Valor and yes when you are fighting against them you need to come up with some way to kill Raelin or Taelord first, then go after the other guys. Thank god you arent a game designer.

Ooooooooooooooo k.
You brought this on yourself, man - *taking off kid gloves*

You come in here, with crappy, badly-costed custom units and tell ME I don't know game design? Not to mention the fact that you just crapped in a thread and personally attacked, when this thread is simply for unit analysis, tweaking/improving, and sharing reasons why.

Say hello to pariah-land, endpawn. You only have yourself to blame. (See upcoming discussion thread about you)

[shakey_snake]

Reaper, please don't feed the trolls.
Does all this penis flexing have to permeate miniature games?

Think of the children.

[vernz]

man those are some great redos they did need a little help to make them worth while

[daevablacc]

Not again

Oh well. I was just going to suggest that Sir Denrick & his knights are nasty enough as they are on certain maps IMHO.

[GaryLASQ]

endpawn, what were you thinking!?

interesting thread here. haven't read through everything yet...

for the sake of consistency, one suggestion i have is the bonding on Arrow Gruts and Roman Leggionaires

most units with bonding have what i call "double limited" bonding. meaning the bonding has 2 limitations, like Human Champion bonding, or Ullar Warlord bonding, etc.

Arrow Gruts have only a Beast limitation. i would change their bonding to Utgar Beast Bonding. this wouldn't change who they can bond to currently.

the Romans are a problem now that we have Sacred Band with Einar Warlord bonding. Romans are a better deal for the points without the Einar limitation. i say for consistency limit the Romans as well with Einar Warlord Bonding.