The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Astroking112]

Theracus definitely isn't free (especially with Acolarh), but I feel that it is worth mentioning, especially since she won't be moving while you're taking turns with your squads. Acolarh himself isn't great, but it's not just 110 points for two more spaces on positioning Faylia, either. I don't think it's gamebreaking by any stretch of the imagination, but I do feel like it's relatively easy to negate her biggest weakness, which is the lack of mobility.

Other than that, I agree with just about everything that Bigga said. Aiming for the 80 point range feels better, since she's such a long-range pseudo-bonding option. Also, if you want her to work with both Elf squads, then I think Common (or some other kind of restriction) should suffice well enough.

[Sir Heroscape]

I agree with a lot of the recent comments. I like the A4/R8 combo...and with that big bow she reminds me of a shard-bearer weilding a shard-bow (massive bows from the stormlight archives). BUT, the massive bow is why (now thinking about it more) I also think evasive 2 doesn't make much sense. If her move is 4 because lugging that thing around is hard, than I think Evasive doesn't make much sense.

So in summary, I agree with others. Drop evasive, up points to 80 (for now during testing), keep A4/R8 (for now during testing) and remove the tricky/precise condition..."common elf squad" should suffice as has been mentioned and I agree it seems clunky with that thrown in there. It's much cleaner without it.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

While those are good points, keep in mind that adding Theracus comes with the 40 point investment for move and a meat shield (okay, Theracus is good, let's admit it), and Acolarh with 110 points for move and a false hope for survivability (when do you get those 3 symbols anyway? ), so it's not like she's getting that much better for free. That said, I do agree she's over the power curve currently. Personally, I would drop the attack by one, drop Evasive 2, and bump the points to 80 for testing. If you really want to keep Evasive, I'd consider dropping the life to 3. If the Attack is going to be 4, though, I'd definitely drop Evasive 2. Also I'd drop the Precise/Tricky condition for elf squads, it feels clunky to me.

I'm more inclined to drop the Life first before Evasive. I would also prefer to either lower it to Evasive 1, or drop the base defense to 1. From the feedback in here so far, I'm thinking I'll drop the life to 3, and test to see if I want to drop evasive entirely, or just go to Evasive 1. I do not want to allow all Elf squads. I specifically want to use the 2 that exist, and leave the door open for any future common elf squads. It is obsoletely true that the likelihood of that happening is incredibly low, but I don't want to inhibit it's chances regardless.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Theracus definitely isn't free (especially with Acolarh), but I feel that it is worth mentioning, especially since she won't be moving while you're taking turns with your squads. Acolarh himself isn't great, but it's not just 110 points for two more spaces on positioning Faylia, either. I don't think it's gamebreaking by any stretch of the imagination, but I do feel like it's relatively easy to negate her biggest weakness, which is the lack of mobility.

Other than that, I agree with just about everything that Bigga said. Aiming for the 80 point range feels better, since she's such a long-range pseudo-bonding option. Also, if you want her to work with both Elf squads, then I think Common (or some other kind of restriction) should suffice well enough.

I'm not sure why, but I actually never thought to use Theracus. The biggest thing about her mobility though, is that even when you negate it, she has to be in a good position to attack when you use the Elven squads. And that means not using the Elven Squads until she's in Position. Theracus get her where you want faster, but that means she can't even attack when you do take the order marker to move her. I have the high hopes of an other common Elven squad, and I don't want them to be hindered by Faylia, which is something that the Hoplitrons have done for all melee range soulborg heros.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I agree with a lot of the recent comments. I like the A4/R8 combo...and with that big bow she reminds me of a shard-bearer weilding a shard-bow (massive bows from the stormlight archives). BUT, the massive bow is why (now thinking about it more) I also think evasive 2 doesn't make much sense. If her move is 4 because lugging that thing around is hard, than I think Evasive doesn't make much sense.

So in summary, I agree with others. Drop evasive, up points to 80 (for now during testing), keep A4/R8 (for now during testing) and remove the tricky/precise condition..."common elf squad" should suffice as has been mentioned and I agree it seems clunky with that thrown in there. It's much cleaner without it.

I just didn't like how easily she went down when other range attacked her. Especially range with any decent attacks power. Maybe I should just drop evasive, and raise her base def to 3.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I'm not sure why, but I actually never thought to use Theracus. The biggest thing about her mobility though, is that even when you negate it, she has to be in a good position to attack when you use the Elven squads. And that means not using the Elven Squads until she's in Position. Theracus get her where you want faster, but that means she can't even attack when you do take the order marker to move her. I have the high hopes of an other common Elven squad, and I don't want them to be hindered by Faylia, which is something that the Hoplitrons have done for all melee range soulborg heros.

I rarely think of him outside of when I'm 40 points short to be honest, but he seems like a very strong choice here. Once you get Faylia into position, you probably won't want to move her anyway, don't need to spend OMs on her, and most tournament maps have that space within Theracus' range anyway. On the larger maps, Acolarh exists as an edge case to bring her out even farther, which is a nice bonus sense he can also (theoretically) boost your squads. It's definitely not A-Tier, but I'd much rather waste 1 OM at the start of the game (when the opponent is unlikely to be ready to counter) to get her into position than multiple OMs slowly moving her forward with the hopes of getting off a shot in the meantime.

I know the pain Hoplitrons have caused all too well from tweaking M.A.R.S.' design, so I can see where you're coming from. I still think that the Tricky or Precise personalities are weird to both be called out like this, though (probably because they're so different). If it came down to it, then I'd suggest changing it to only be Precise, since that works thematically and Faylia fits the Archers more than the Warriors.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I know the pain Hoplitrons have caused all too well from tweaking M.A.R.S.' design, so I can see where you're coming from. I still think that the Tricky or Precise personalities are weird to both be called out like this, though (probably because they're so different). If it came down to it, then I'd suggest changing it to only be Precise, since that works thematically and Faylia fits the Archers more than the Warriors.

I don't particularly agree here. I wouldn't say hinder as much as open new doors. With the continuation of the VC units, we still have the game of heroscape evolving release after release. Evolution of the game should be building off of what has gone before and I think that for that reason this is okay. Faylia's existence wouldn't break adding another elven squads anymore than adding the Greenscales did. Greenscales shook the very roots of the Heroscape meta beyond almost any other released figure (IMHO), and yet they are still a balanced unit that works with existing heroes, the game (and players) adjusted, other units and even other dragons were created and we move on. Don't be concerned about the future when the future is so unsure. I'd design to what exists. A future elven squad that MIGHT exist would have to take into account MANY other synergies outside of just Faylia and that even IF Falylia were to pass and join the halls of the VC. So, in short, don't worry about it and design what is practical, simple, mechanically makes sense and is fun. IMO that means leaving that ability open to operate on Common Elf Squads.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I rarely think of him outside of when I'm 40 points short to be honest, but he seems like a very strong choice here. Once you get Faylia into position, you probably won't want to move her anyway, don't need to spend OMs on her, and most tournament maps have that space within Theracus' range anyway. On the larger maps, Acolarh exists as an edge case to bring her out even farther, which is a nice bonus sense he can also (theoretically) boost your squads. It's definitely not A-Tier, but I'd much rather waste 1 OM at the start of the game (when the opponent is unlikely to be ready to counter) to get her into position than multiple OMs slowly moving her forward with the hopes of getting off a shot in the meantime.

I know the pain Hoplitrons have caused all too well from tweaking M.A.R.S.' design, so I can see where you're coming from. I still think that the Tricky or Precise personalities are weird to both be called out like this, though (probably because they're so different). If it came down to it, then I'd suggest changing it to only be Precise, since that works thematically and Faylia fits the Archers more than the Warriors.

The Ashra need the Ranged support the most. The Aubriens can hold their own, they're just inconsistent, and lack the fire power to break higher defense figures without just praying for a blank.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I don't particularly agree here. I wouldn't say hinder as much as open new doors. With the continuation of the VC units, we still have the game of heroscape evolving release after release. Evolution of the game should be building off of what has gone before and I think that for that reason this is okay. Faylia's existence wouldn't break adding another elven squads anymore than adding the Greenscales did. Greenscales shook the very roots of the Heroscape meta beyond almost any other released figure (IMHO), and yet they are still a balanced unit that works with existing heroes, the game (and players) adjusted, other units and even other dragons were created and we move on. Don't be concerned about the future when the future is so unsure. I'd design to what exists. A future elven squad that MIGHT exist would have to take into account MANY other synergies outside of just Faylia and that even IF Falylia were to pass and join the halls of the VC. So, in short, don't worry about it and design what is practical, simple, mechanically makes sense and is fun. IMO that means leaving that ability open to operate on Common Elf Squads.

Still, I intended this Hero to work with the existing Squads and to leave the opportunity for any future squad designs to avoid that if they chose to do so.

[Kinseth]

I like the idea, and I like that it is only for squads. I don't like 4 attack dice, I would suggest dropping to 3. 4/8 is just too rich for my blood, 3/6 feels more appropriate.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I don't particularly agree here. I wouldn't say hinder as much as open new doors. With the continuation of the VC units, we still have the game of heroscape evolving release after release. Evolution of the game should be building off of what has gone before and I think that for that reason this is okay. Faylia's existence wouldn't break adding another elven squads anymore than adding the Greenscales did. Greenscales shook the very roots of the Heroscape meta beyond almost any other released figure (IMHO), and yet they are still a balanced unit that works with existing heroes, the game (and players) adjusted, other units and even other dragons were created and we move on. Don't be concerned about the future when the future is so unsure. I'd design to what exists. A future elven squad that MIGHT exist would have to take into account MANY other synergies outside of just Faylia and that even IF Falylia were to pass and join the halls of the VC. So, in short, don't worry about it and design what is practical, simple, mechanically makes sense and is fun. IMO that means leaving that ability open to operate on Common Elf Squads.

For context, I saw some compelling arguments to turn my intentionally standalone SoulBorg hero into a design that requires players to constantly use an explosive Special Attack, which could be accomplished by removing range on his normal attack. However, to do so would require him to be designed as a bonding hero for the Hoplitrons, instead of standalone like I wanted. Making a bonding hero is distinctly separate from a standalone Special Attacker, and it would have necessitated a jump in points that make him impractical without Hoplitrons.

Building off of past designs is going to happen no matter what, but there are elegant ways of helping the future out a little bit. Greenscales are great, but they've been designed in a way that still leaves dragons plenty of room to flourish. Only large/huge Uniques are candidates, first of all, and then only one can be chosen per game, which lets us still design cheaper "Lizard Kings." For ranged kiters like Zelrig, they have poor stats unless within range of their hero, which limits their effectiveness (even more so with dragons like Brimstone). It is a highly different story from adding a new Unique Hero that can work with any Common <Species> Squad.

To an extent, I do agree that we should design to what is here (especially since the nature of VC means that we can never tell what else will be possible), and I do agree that in this case Faylia could get away with just using Common Elf Squads. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about what else we can do in the future, which I believe is at least partially what Leaf_It is concerned about here.

[Sir Heroscape]

Like Bigga, I just think it draws away from the design by making it a clunky power by calling out the Tricky and Precise. It seems forced.

[caps]

I think I have bigger problems with this design. Tacking a ranged attack on to the Ashra feels odd.

I would suggest going a different direction with the powerset altogether if you want to design for this mini.

[superfrog]

Cover Shot is really clunky to me.

For one, the mechanic is backwards: The trigger is on the wrong card. This is the problem on most reverse bonding. It really only works thematically if you're designing a commander unit, which I don't think you are.

I agree with others that the personality limitation probably should be dropped.

My last complaint is that it doesn't really feel like a cover shot to me. I think of Skahen's Cover Fire, where you can move one figure (as long as it's nearby) when she attacks.

I do agree that VC is light on Ullar for whatever reason. I don't think an elf squad helper is the way to go to add more Ullar, though.

[Dad_Scaper]

That is an odd mini. Where is the bowstring supposed to be? Or is it not strung? And how would a person - even a magical elf - draw a bow that size in order to accommodate an arrow that's almost as tall as he is? I mean, I can imagine planting the bow on the ground, as he has it here, and drawing the string far enough back that you could launch an arrow, but far enough back for those arrows? It is, not to put too fine a point on it, a stretch.

I'm not a fan of this mini. I wouldn't say it's unusable, but I don't think it bridges the gap from a borderline mini to a worthy SoV candidate to add (essentially) bonding with the WoA, and a garden variety massive ranged normal attack. Just not special enough, in my book, to hit the center of the target.

Thanks as always to @Leaf_It and to all those brave enough to bring their customs here, to the operating table.