Trial of Carnage (custom by Jack o' Blades)

[IAmBatman]

Second mini battle and results were *mostly* the same. Though I could've seen this one going against Carnage as well, so he's looking decently balanced even against his symbiote peer in my eyes now.

Report: Again, first round spent positioning. Second round started with Venom giving Carnage a wound with the Web Special - Deja Vu so far.
It stopped when Carnage's first Carn-Axe assault failed to land more than one wound, though, and Venom got another shot, using his 6 attack dice to land two wounds on Carnage. At this point, it's 1 wound for Venom, 4 wounds for Carnage (one self imposed).
Knowing his normal attack is so inferior to Venom's and that Venom has so many more life points, Carnage had no choice but to risk another Carn-Axe attack. He did, and inflicted 4 wounds, finishing Venom. Final results: Venom dead. Carnage 5 wounds.
Analysis: If Venom had been lucky enough to survive a second Carn-Axe assault, Venom would've likely finished him. Venom's superior attack makes him a much better option against Carnage than Spidey.
So right now, Carnage is looking like a nearly sure thing against Spidey, a good option against Venom, a poor choice against swarms, and probably a so-so option against other heroes in his point range.
I'd say he looks like a decent addition, but he wouldn't get a terrible amount of play out of me.
Still, he's not looking broken or confusing or thematically inappropriate in any way, so unless chatter in here the next few days convinces me otherwise, I forsee giving this guy the STAMP.

[Eclipse]

So far, your playtesting has me convinced otherwise. Here's the two things I can't quite wrap my head around:

- Why does Carnage take a wound when he uses his Carn-Axe special attack?

- Why is a mass murder absolutely horrible at murdering masses?

- Why does he cost somewhere in between Spiderman and Venom when he's supposed to be stronger than both?

I have a few more comments, but I'd like to get a little more discussion on this card before I continue.

[IAmBatman]

These are all questions I'm glad you're asking, because I'm not very familiar with the character, so all I'm looking at is gameplay elements - not how gameplay relates to his character's presumed power level or thematics.

[Jack o' Blades]

Originally Posted by Eclipse

So far, your playtesting has me convinced otherwise. Here's the two things I can't quite wrap my head around:

- Why does Carnage take a wound when he uses his Carn-Axe special attack?

- Why is a mass murder absolutely horrible at murdering masses?

- Why does he cost somewhere in between Spiderman and Venom when he's supposed to be stronger than both?

I have a few more comments, but I'd like to get a little more discussion on this card before I continue.

I will answer them

Q1 -- Carnage takes a wound by using his Carn-Axe Special Attack because he is seperating some of the symbiote from himself to create the ''axe''.

Q2 -- I designed him more specifically for MS...and well, the masses aren't too massive (yet).

Q3 -- I originally priced him 170, but was recommended by several others to make him slightly cheaper, and so I did. By the looks of it so far, he can totally slaughter Spiderman, which is thematically correct. He can kill Venom, which is also thematically correct. However, it looks like if the two were to team up, Carnage is screwed...which is a good sign too.

It just dawned on me that perhaps he should cost a bit more.



Hopefully that answered your questions. Feel free to ask more

[IAmBatman]

I think a boost to 160 might be in order - but I want to see what other people's playtesting amounts to.

[GreyOwl]

I would say even higher than 160. It sounds like he's stronger than Spider-Man by quite a bit.

[IAmBatman]

He's stronger than Spider-Man one on one. However, he has nowhere near Spiderman's survivability against other units due to his lack of Spider Sense. Spider Sense lets Spidey survive much better than him against every other unit in the game besides Carnage, and Carnage's Anti-Spider lets him whomp on exactly two units - Spidey and Venom. So I wouldn't say Carnage is head and shoulders above Spidey - he just whips Spidey in a duel. This game is much larger than two figures, though.

[Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Jack o' Blades

I will answer them

Q1 -- Carnage takes a wound by using his Carn-Axe Special Attack because he is seperating some of the symbiote from himself to create the ''axe''.

I kinda expected that answer. I've got two problems with the idea though. First off, the iconic Carn-Axe rarely actually separates from Carnage and he reabsorbs the Symbiote after he uses it. I've rarely seen overuse of the power be his downfall, even less than seeing Venom get worn down by overusing his web attack. I certainly don't recall him falling apart because he used it just 6 times.

The second is more of a concern to me however. My biggest problem with the way this power works, is that it encourages Carnage holding back, which seems terribly out of character. Carnage is the kind of character to use 8 attack dice to slaughter a Viper, which I don't think you'll get with this power set up.

Originally Posted by Jack o' Blades

Q2 -- I designed him more specifically for MS...and well, the masses aren't too massive (yet).

Probably fair, but I'd really consider making a character that's prepared for the future. We're continually told this game is designed to be fully compatible and the TNT cards should really do their best to maintain that goal.

Originally Posted by Jack o' Blades

Q3 -- I originally priced him 170, but was recommended by several others to make him slightly cheaper, and so I did. By the looks of it so far, he can totally slaughter Spiderman, which is thematically correct. He can kill Venom, which is also thematically correct. However, it looks like if the two were to team up, Carnage is screwed...which is a good sign too.

It just dawned on me that perhaps he should cost a bit more.

I really think if Spiderman and Venom need to team up to take him down, then he needs to be priced accordingly. A 180-200 version of Carnage would hardly be out of line, and would allow you to put a little more into him without relying on my least favorite of his powers.

Originally Posted by Jack o' Blades

Hopefully that answered your questions. Feel free to ask more

I'm going to voice my gripe about the Spider Sense evading power one more time, just because I really think its a bad idea. I think my biggest problem is what Spider Sense really represents in this game. While its given that name, it really represents Spidey's agility and evasive fighting style. In this game, its what makes Spidey fight like Spidey, dancing around dodging blows while trying to return in kind.

Carnage's ability has never completely negated Spiderman's speed and reaction times. What it usually grants him is the ability to approach Spiderman without his knowledge. Once in battle, Spiderman still fights dodging Carnage's attacks, and generally playing the hard to hit little bug that he is. I think a Carnage that just swings in and wails on either of these figures significantly detracts from the way these fights go down in the comics, which is my biggest problem with the power.

Personally, I'd rather see Carnage be stronger all around, but less brutally effective against two specific characters. He's a pretty powerful guy, vicious, deadly, and really really hard to take down. His ability to take down Spidey doesn't rely nearly as much on the no-Sense gimmick as it does on his base abilities. If you're set on including it, I'd tone it down and bump his base stats significantly. Maybe a character rolling for Spider Sense subtracts 3 from their result when defending against Carnage? I really think that'll do a better job of letting Carnage win without losing what makes Spiderman fight like Spiderman in this game.

[IAmBatman]

Gotta say, as someone unfamiliar with Carnage, and already feeling that being created soley as a Spidey specific assassin isn't as fun as the character could be, I'm feeling pretty persuaded by Eclipse's arguments here.
Three things he said that I definitely concur with.
1) Carnage should be more powerful in general, and shouldn't be encouraged to hold back - he's a sociopath, let him be one.
2) Subtracting from the Spidey Sense roll instead of completely obliterating it might work better, for various reasons I won't list (rehash) here.
and
3) The standard for TNT customs should be full compatibility, not just Marvel Masterset compatibility.

Maybe he could roll one attack die each time he uses Carn-Axe and take any hits - that way he only has a 50% chance of taking damage each time he uses it (so he *might* get hurt if he overdoes it, but it's not necessarily going to happen). Just a thought.
I agree with bumping up some of his base stats as well.
Something like a Blood Hungry Special Attack might fit as well ...

[Firemaster]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Something like a Blood Hungry Special Attack might fit as well ...

Perhaps something like what I was thinking of for my Carnage:

TOTAL CARNAGE
If Carnage destroys a figure with his normal attack, you may take another turn with Carnage.

[IAmBatman]

I certainly love the name! It even sounds bloody ...

[Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Firemaster

Perhaps something like what I was thinking of for my Carnage:

TOTAL CARNAGE
If Carnage destroys a figure with his normal attack, you may take another turn with Carnage.

Name it MAXIMUM CARNAGE or go home

Anyway, something like Bloodhungry is probably a pretty solid way to go. I don't know if I'd give him a full turn, as the inability to move is something that stops Brunak from clearing the board on a single turn.

Something like Jotun's Wild Swing might work well for him too. I've actually got a variation of the power written up for an upcoming Hero NOBODY's ever heard of.