Re: The Workbook of Uruk Hai (Saruman's)
The tale thus far:
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Originally Posted by Shiftrex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts
GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100
(Possible powers)
ISENGARDERS
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, blanks count as skulls.
SARUMAN'S WILL
If an Uruk-hai Scout ends its normal movement unengaged you may move each Uruk-hai scout up to 2 additional spaces as long as they do not end their movement adjacent to enemy figures.
FIND THE HALFLINGS/CAPTURE
Before moving an Uruk-hai Scout, choose a small enemy figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. A figure that has been moved with CAPTURE never takes leaving engagement strikes.
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Just some spitballed powers here since the first Uruk-hai up to bat for designs would be the party that killed Boromir and snatched up the hobbits. From the research I've been looking at, the party that we see in the Fellowship were classified as scouts led by Ugluk. I think it'd be cool to have some thematic powers identifying them as a specific type of Uruk-hai in addition to their class as a scout.
There is supposed to be a distinction between Uruk-hai that were made by Saruman in the third age which were called Isengarders and the ones from Mordor that were called Black Uruks or Mordor Uruks. Maybe I'm not taking them in the right direction but I think all the Uruk-hai that have the symbol of the white hand should have an ability called ISENGARDERS to identify that piece of their lore if it's possible. Helps break them up further if that's something we are interested in since we are separating Moria Orcs from their Mordor counterparts with the Cave Dweller ability.
The statline puts these guys as even with Heavy Gruts, I was hesitant to put more attack or defense on them because I was going for scouts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash
Could name the card or the ability White Hand Uruk Hai. And the others Uruk Hai Of Mordor. Also using the blanks is an amazing idea.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
Regarding blanks as skulls, without height thats the same expected value as just giving them 4 attack (4*0.5 = 2 = 3*(2/3)). It only makes a difference when they gain height, as then their 4 attack is slightly stronger than 5 without the power. Not necessarily an argument for or against, just an observation.
I do think there's a potential issue with dice though. This power means you cannot use the red/blue dice from Ms1 version 1 with this card on attacks (previously only true for flagbearer powers i think). Not necessarily a show stopper but worth thinking about.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
Regarding blanks as skulls, without height thats the same expected value as just giving them 4 attack (4*0.5 = 2 = 3*(2/3)). It only makes a difference when they gain height, as then their 4 attack is slightly stronger than 5 without the power. Not necessarily an argument for or against, just an observation.
I do think there's a potential issue with dice though. This power means you cannot use the red/blue dice from Ms1 version 1 with this card on attacks (previously only true for flagbearer powers i think). Not necessarily a show stopper but worth thinking about.
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Went with Chris' suggestion to move the conversation over to Brainstorming, it probably does belong over here. I just get caught up replying to stuff where it is.
Also, in response to the power that uses blanks. I wouldn't be opposed to calling it the White Hand because that's what I was going for. I wanted something across the board that could be placed on Isenguard Uruks to identify them with good old Saruman. Can easily be reworded if we don't like using the white blanks on common dice as an identifier or the wording can just be changed to be dice inclusive so we get the effect of the "miss" being a skull:
ISENGARDERS/THE WHITE HAND
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, anything except a shield counts as a skull. (not sure if the "miss" on a die is an actual term to reference)
OR
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack dice against a human, add one additional die (this is simple but that's not a bad thing as a movie quote was that the Isenguard Uruk's were bred with a single purpose, to destroy the world of men.)
It'd be cool if we could get to a spot where the "boost" and the movement power were both useable on these guys because it does have a "scouty" feel to it and the theme is fun because it shouldn't allow them to attack as written but rather to position.
I'm fine relegating capture to a scenario power but I do want to point out if you read it that the concern that you voiced (Chris) does not exist. You can't "capture" your own goblin or small figure to bring along with you because the power is not carry. It only works on enemy figures.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
I like the addition of Uruk Scouts as a general concept, having more versions of the 'core bad' squad is a good thing I think.
That being said, I think the main difference between the 'scouts' and 'normal' Sauroman Uruks should be that the Scouts have a lower attack and the 'normal' ones do not have any form of the 'carry' power (whatever it ends up being). So the scouts become the 'tactical rearrangement' squad (maybe this should even be a unique squad? worth thinking about) and the 'normal' Uruks become the 'heavy attack' squad.
Also worth discussing if the scouts should be 3 or 4 person squad. If common, I'm leaning toward 3 to make the distinction bigger but should be 4 if unique.
For Carry - how about allowing them to carry any small, non-orc figure. Seems more thematic (Uruks would never have carried an orc) but allows some interesting army choice where maybe you put scouts & Merry/Pippin in the same build for synergy.
I also like the idea of them sharing some kind of 'White Hand' power; no idea what it should be yet though.
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Those are pretty dope suggestions, that means they could look something like...
NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts
GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (at 3 figures) or Unique Squad (at 4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100
(Possible powers)
ISENGARDERS
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, anything that isn't a shield counts as a skull.
SARUMAN'S WILL
If an Uruk-hai Scout ends its normal movement unengaged you may move each Uruk-hai scout up to 2 additional spaces as long as they do not end their movement adjacent to enemy figures.
CARRY/FIND THE HALFLINGS/CAPTURE
Before moving an Uruk-hai Scout, choose a small non-Orc figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. A figure that has been moved with CAPTURE never takes leaving engagement strikes.
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We might be able to get away with slightly more focused/complex figures if we move these guys to unique squads and at 100 points they wouldn't be overwhelming I don't think. Their stats make them straight up weaker than Heavies if comparing point values and just numbers, the abilities seem comparable in my mind to make them similar in value. If we went the route of Unique squad we would need to keep the Viking spirits in mind which would be a cool way to play, don't know if that's the useability we want though.
Additionally, one of these powers could be dropped and added onto Ugluk as his "empowerment" but I would say that I want the ISENGARDERS/WHITE HAND ability to stay, though it can definitely change in scope. It's a touch decision because these guys should be made to be supplemented by Ugluk, so they can't be too amazing by themselves.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
I don't want to refer to "blanks" in special powers, nor to faces that don't show shields/skulls.
I like the idea of +1 attack against humans as a White Hand power. That's a decent power that works against a lot of great figures.
What if we just use TRACKING instead of Saruman's Will?
What about reusing Brontos's ABDUCT but only for small non-orc figures? I am fine with calling it FIND THE HALFLINGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
The more I think about it the more I like these guys as a Unique squad. From a thematic standpoint, there were like 100-200 of them in the party that attacked the fellowship, compared with ~ 10,000 Uruk heavy warriors at the Hornburg.
Also, I think we can do some cooler powers if they're unique. And the 'moving other figures' thing isn't something you'll want a ton of in your army anyways, so from a competition standpoint it works as unique also.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
A possible change to 'Carry/Capture':
Capture
Before moving each Uruk-hai Scout, you may choose any opponent's small, non-Orc figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. That figure may not move or be moved by any power while it remains adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout unless that scout has used capture to move another figure. A figure that has been moved with Capture never takes leaving engagement strikes.
This gives it a cyper-claw esc power, which I think fits since the Hobbits couldn't go anywhere once captured until the orc party was killed by Eomer's riders. It also makes them more powerful as a Unique Squad.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
I second Cap's idea of 'White Hand' being +1 attack against all men. I think that's a nice unifying thread that makes the power work better for any dice that are being used.
I also might want to reduce the scout's attack to 1 and leave the normal Uruk's attack at 3, then with the boost against men they are at 2 & 4 respectively.
(sorry for the triple-post)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
I also like the idea of them as a Unique Squad. I'm not sure about the Cyberclaw aspect; it could be more fiddly/complex than I'd like to see. I'll have to see it alongside everything else.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
So, current suggestions would make the look thusly
NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts
GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Unique Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100
(Possible powers)
ISENGARDERS/The White Hand
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure add 1 additional attack die.
TRACKING
FIND THE HALFLINGS
Before moving Uruk-hai, choose a small or medium non-Orc figure adjacent to any scout. Uruk-hai Scouts do not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure. After you move them, place the chosen figure adjacent to them on an unoccupied land space, if possible. A figure moved by Uruk-hai Scouts never takes any leaving engagement attacks. If Uruk-Hai attacks this turn, they must attack the Abducted figure.
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I dont know the wording for tracking, dont own any figures that have it. What figure uses it? Also, the abduct power from Brontos seems to accomplish what we want here but I'd like to drop the requirement to attack the abducted quarry.
I'd vote against cyberclaw effects. I know it's a well known power but I personally hate being robbed of the choice to disengage. I think it's an unfun ability but that's just me.
Also, if we reduce their attack then they are on par/worse than orcs when attacking non humans. Is that a direction we want to go? I personally dont think they should be weaker than our own orcs vs nonhumans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
I'd vote against cyberclaw effects. I know it's a well known power but I personally hate being robbed of the choice to disengage. I think it's an unfun ability but that's just me.
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How many total small figures are we going to have though? Hobbits & Dwarves + Gollum, anything else? There aren't that many figures that could get 'cyberclawed' by this.
Quote:
Also, if we reduce their attack then they are on par/worse than orcs when attacking non humans. Is that a direction we want to go? I personally dont think they should be weaker than our own orcs vs nonhumans
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That's fair, I'd say I'm convinced of a base '2' attack by that point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
So, current suggestions would make the look thusly
NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts
GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Unique Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?
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I am not sure about class of Scout, but I like this otherwise. We can circle back on personality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100
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I think I prefer 3 attack since they are a Unique Squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
ISENGARDERS/The White Hand
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure add 1 additional attack die.
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I like this. Can we call it URUKS OF THE WHITE HAND?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
TRACKING
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I dont know the wording for tracking, dont own any figures that have it. What figure uses it?
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Yes. The Varkaanan Greyspears are a Unique Squad with this power. TRACKING
While moving, the Uruk-Hai Scouts may add 2 to their Move number. If they do, the Uruk-Hai Scouts cannot attack this turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
FIND THE HALFLINGS
Before moving Uruk-hai, choose a small or medium non-Orc figure adjacent to any scout. Uruk-hai Scouts do not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure. After you move them, place the chosen figure adjacent to them on an unoccupied land space, if possible. A figure moved by Uruk-hai Scouts never takes any leaving engagement attacks. If Uruk-Hai attacks this turn, they must attack the Abducted figure.
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Also, the abduct power from Brontos seems to accomplish what we want here but I'd like to drop the requirement to attack the abducted quarry.
I'd vote against cyberclaw effects. I know it's a well known power but I personally hate being robbed of the choice to disengage. I think it's an unfun ability but that's just me.
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I agree about dropping the "attack" requirement; it doesn't make thematic sense here. I think Cyberclaw effects do have an interesting impact on the battlefield, so it's not a question of "fun" for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
Also, if we reduce their attack then they are on par/worse than orcs when attacking non humans. Is that a direction we want to go? I personally dont think they should be weaker than our own orcs vs nonhumans
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As I said above, I prefer an attack of 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
I'd vote against cyberclaw effects. I know it's a well known power but I personally hate being robbed of the choice to disengage. I think it's an unfun ability but that's just me.
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How many total small figures are we going to have though? Hobbits & Dwarves + Gollum, anything else? There aren't that many figures that could get 'cyberclawed' by this.
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That's a fair point, but I am still concerned that adding that effect will make the power more complex than is worthwhile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
So, do we have enough here to start a workbook on these guys then or is it too hasty?
I'm fine with either 2 or 3 attack, Uruks are strong. URUKS OF THE WHITE HAND seems like a long name but it has that cool flavor we are looking for. I wouldnt be opposed to see how it looks on a card.
Tracking is an awesome ability, very thematic here with their purpose. Is the dislike for the scout class mechanically based or from a lore/flavor perspective.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
This is how I feel about rerolling blanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
I don't want to refer to "blanks" in special powers, nor to faces that don't show shields/skulls.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex
NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts
GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Unique Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout/Hunter/Tracker
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3/2
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100
(Possible powers)
ISENGARDERS/URUKS OF THE WHITE HAND
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure add 1 additional attack die.
TRACKING
While moving, the Uruk-Hai Scouts may add 2 to their Move number. If they do, the Uruk-Hai Scouts cannot attack this turn.
FIND THE HALFLINGS
Before moving Uruk-hai, choose a small or medium non-Orc figure adjacent to any scout. Uruk-hai Scouts do not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure. After you move them, place the chosen figure adjacent to them on an unoccupied land space, if possible. A figure moved by Uruk-hai Scouts never takes any leaving engagement attacks.
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So, this appears to be where we are at. There is still some thought going on about the White Hand ability, though we have opposition to referencing blanks... too customy of a feel I'm guessing? I have no feeling about it.
Scout us called into question as a class so I provided some alternatives but I'm not sure why scout wouldnt be their class, they are scouts. Seems like a simple connection to make.
The capture power looks good without the attack compulsion, focus is narrow and thematic.
Also, the attack power is still being discussed. These look mostly like details that a fellowship should work out. Should we do some talking on Ugluk next or are there still things we can figure out with the Urakhai scouts?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates
Well we are calling them scouts in the name, so I guess I am fine with Scouts as the class. I just don't think of them as scouts rather than warriors. They seem to me more like warriors that happened to be filling the role of scouts rather than scouts being essentially who and what they are.
Let's have a look at Ugluk, yes?
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