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View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists?
I know God through reason, science, etc. 3 7.89%
I accept God through belief or personal revelation 11 28.95%
Other 12 31.58%
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope 12 31.58%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #157  
Old August 20th, 2018, 04:38 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
With loyalty. Why?
More than that, right? You want them to be happy. You care about things that are important to them. You don't want to see them hurt.

If someone says to you "I love God with all my heart and love other people as much as I love myself and I sexually abuse children", how plausible do you find that statement?

If someone said to their spouse "I love you with every fiber of my being and now I am going to do everything in my power to do the things that make you miserable", how credible could you possibly find that?

The term Christian means "Christ follower". I think it is entirely fair to examine what someone who claims to be a Christ follower does and see if it is believable that someone who does those things can also be someone who loves God.

~Aldin, discerningly

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #158  
Old August 20th, 2018, 05:13 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

So what is the criteria to go to Heaven?
It sounds like you have to at least know about God and try to love him and all things?
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  #159  
Old August 20th, 2018, 06:14 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
So what is the criteria to go to Heaven?
It sounds like you have to at least know about God and try to love him and all things?
When I read this I was like "didn't we already have this conversation?" And we didn't, quite. But we did, kinda. Like I said, the straightforward answer is to acknowledge your sin to God and ask for His forgiveness and redemption through the payment for that sin by His Son, Jesus.

As I alluded to in the past few posts, there are some things that simply must be true in that case. For example, you would truly need to believe in God and that He is who He says He is - otherwise, how could you acknowledge your sin, much less accept forgiveness for it? So yes, someone who was to accept salvation would be someone who loves God, but in theory you've already understood things like "you have to believe in Heaven", "you have to believe in God", "you have to believe in sin", etc. Those things should all be evident from the necessary steps of salvation.

For the more complex parts of the answer, some are addressed with the below previous post. Others I can address more specifically with more specific questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
If God is all-loving, why did they only appear in a small geographic location on Earth, leaving the vast majority of humans without the knowledge of their love and without a path to salvation?

That feels like an extremely impractical approach for a being that was able to create everything in a week. A being that requires worship to be saved but chooses only to let a chosen few know they exist?
How is that all-loving?
Wanna hear the complicated version of "I don't know"?

The single geographic location was unavoidable. Jesus was only ever going to be one man who would be born in one place, live one life, and sacrifice it for everyone, everywhere, throughout time. Romans 5: 12-19 (NIV) says:

Quote:
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
In summary, Adam sinned and Jesus atoned with both the sin and the atonement having universal application. So the geography is simply a function of Jesus being one man. The application of the work is universal.

If we know that people in the Old Testament were heaven-bound prior to the time of Jesus and if it is only the atonement of Jesus which allows their salvation, then there is a way for them to have had Jesus righteousness credited to them before He was even born. I know salvation through Jesus is necessary for anyone to have a relationship with God. I have to confess to not always knowing how that works or what it looks like.

Many years before Christ, Job says "I know that my redeemer lives and that in the end he will stand upon the earth." Job had no way of knowing Jesus, but I believe that he accepted him as savior anyway... like I said, the complicated version of "I don't know".

~Aldin, speculatively
~Aldin, quoting himself

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #160  
Old August 20th, 2018, 06:24 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Sorry, I guess I have not found the answer I am looking for yet.
I enjoy the searching though.
Thank you.
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  #161  
Old August 20th, 2018, 06:46 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Sorry, I guess I have not found the answer I am looking for yet.
I enjoy the searching though.
Thank you.
This series is amazing for trying to get answers out of the Bible. He’s a psychologist, and approaches it as a glimpse into the minds of humans as we discovered awareness as a species. Very long, but very interesting stuff.

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  #162  
Old August 21st, 2018, 11:05 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Sorry, I guess I have not found the answer I am looking for yet.
But what's the question? To me, it feels like you may be asking questions that nibble around the edges of your real concerns. I get the sense that a significant concern, perhaps the primary concern is a feeling that it's all very unfair. As such, I would like to state a few things clearly. These may be misdirected, as I may be misreading you. Still, it seems good to me to say them for anyone who might feel God is unfair:

1) Everyone has an opportunity to know God, and those who choose to have that relationship with Him as their God will be in Heaven.

2) God is a specific person. Choosing a relationship with Him is choosing an actual relationship with Him, not picking and choosing attributes of a god you would like to have and calling it God.

3) There are people who call themselves Christians that very clearly have no relationship with God.

~Aldin, standing ready to support any of those statements from the Bible

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #163  
Old August 21st, 2018, 11:44 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

I still to not get how everyone throughout time has had an opportunity to have a relationship with God and in your original response you say you do not know so I am not sure how you can make that statement. Because of the Bible?
A book you say was written by unknown people at an unknown time but is accepted as the word of God.
As I said before I find it unreasonable that a being powerful enough to create everything was only able to let themselves be known in a small geographic location on Earth.
Did he not speak with Moses? So he could not speak to native Americans?
Why not let himself be known to all?

And your answer? I do not know.
My personal theory is that it all went down a lot different then we are being told.

I do not think God is unfair. How can he be? I think humans have twisted the belief of God in their own way, mostly in pursuit of power and control over their fellow man.
Much like the Boy Scouts, I respect the mission and agree with most of the principles, I just question the way it has been executed by the those who have placed themselves in power.

Keep the faith Aldin. I respect your devotion and appreciate the conversations always.
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  #164  
Old August 21st, 2018, 01:46 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@Tornado

With regard to the Bible, I did not say it was written by unknown people at unknown times. In fact, the authorship of most of the Bible is very well established and fairly firmly dated. Having said that, I do appreciate the opportunity to share a discussion on it. I hope you find your answers.

~Aldin, respectfully

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #165  
Old August 21st, 2018, 02:29 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Could you give me the names and dates of the authors of the Bible and why those points in time were chosen above any other time in history to share the word of God with the masses?

My issues do not lie with God but with the people that have twisted religion to their own desires. Much as I do not dislike dogs but take issue with terrible dog owners. It is not the dog's fault that their owner has not raised them correctly just like it is not God's fault that people have chosen to use his love to wield power and control others.

I am simply trying to help people consider what is really important. Is it strict adherence to outdated practices or is it to the underlining good that all people can be a part of, regardless of belief?

I know you take the stance that people are not Christians if they do not act like Christians but that does nothing to change the fact that people's Christian beliefs lead to hate and abuse of power and I think there must be a better way than following the age old status quo and perhaps these ancient practices are persisting problems that should never be an issue with true Christians.
I think we need a new Bible. One of love and acceptance.

If the Bible did not state that homosexuality is wrong, would gay people face the same kind of discrimination as they do now? I think not as that is driven largely by the Christian community. Where is the love?

You say that everyone has a chance to be loved by God but how can that be true if you are gay and God says that it is wrong? I have a hard time believing that is God's actual stance on the matter, why would God care who you love, and that it is purely a human construct.


One of my favorite movies is Saved! Check it out sometime.
Jenna Malone's character makes astatement that directly relates to my last point:
"If God wanted us all to be the same, why did he make us all so different?"
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  #166  
Old August 21st, 2018, 04:05 PM
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Quick Chime In

I haven't read too much in depth, but I have a feeling my answers would sometimes overlap and sometimes stage with Aldin although we do have different theologies, but I think we're more similar than I probably suspect.

~Dysole, not sure if tornado wants her answers to questions or not
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  #167  
Old August 21st, 2018, 04:27 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Cool post. Lots of ways to respond. I think I'll go for a casual approach. As usual, let me know if you were wanting something different.

I could list the authors and dates, but there are a lot of them and it's probably easier to address the "why them and then" in an overview:

The first five books are the law. They were written at the beginning of the country of Israel to provide rules for the country.

The next set of books are primarily history intended to be used by the country of Israel so they could know their history.

The exceptions to history in that set of books are poetry and proverb. Books for people in Israel to use in knowing God better and being better people.

After the history is prophecy. These books are also historical, recording the lives of the prophets and the things they predicted. These were written for the people of Israel to have as a litmus test for when their redeemer came to see of it was really the right person. If I remember correctly, the last one (Malachi) was written around 300 years before Jesus was born.

That's the Old Testament.

The New Testament is written in the decades after Jesus life on Earth.

The first set of these are the Gospels, mostly eyewitness accounts or collections of eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus.

The next two books are a history of the early Christians, including the change from telling the good news almost solely to Jews to telling the good news to everyone.

The next several books are a collection of letters written by the apostles to the early churches.

The last book is once again a book of prophecy for Christians to have as a litmus test for whether or not the final years before Jesus physically comes back to Earth are here.

The Bible doesn't have any passage that says "Lo and behold, Jesus came in the early years of the Roman Empire, born in a satellite state of that empire so that the roads which the Romans had built and the expansion they had made around the world would be available to the early church to carry the good news." It happens to have worked out that way, and the timing was excellent for that, but the Bible itself is silent on why, specifically, Jesus was born in a satellite state of the early Roman Empire.

And yeah, folks that twist the teachings of the Bible and use them to gain personal power drive me nuts, too! Not a fan of any sort of we do this because we've always done it, either. People who believe many, many things have twisted those things in power and corruption to cause harm. But throwing out good things because they have been used to cause harm is not the right answer. Evil people have plowed into crowds with trucks, but getting angry at trucks or the people who drive them doesn't address the real issue, which is the evil people.

Not sure why Christians get the bad rep on homosexuality as compared to everyone else. I'd much rather be homosexual here, today than most other places here on Earth now and than almost anywhere else anytime else in the history of the world. I could argue it is the underlying compassion of Christianity which has made societies with Christian backgrounds so open to accepting people regardless of things like sexual orientation. At any rate, most societies today which are highly accepting of homosexuality are societies that had a lot of people going to Christian churches 100 years ago.

Sin is doing things that are wrong and everyone sins. No one can stand before God and say to Him that they haven't done things He says are wrong. God's love is for us sinners. Trying to pick and choose which sins are better and which ones are worse is foolish.

Of course God doesn't want us all to be the same. Difference is to be celebrated!

~Aldin, who occasionally thinks he should check with his mother to be completely sure Dysole is not a sibling

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #168  
Old August 21st, 2018, 04:30 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

I would Dysole.
Above all else I try to stay open minded. My current position is not something I am beholden to but where I am currently.
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