Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[caps]

I sense your frustration, Sir H, because you seem to feel that we are saying your faction is broken. I don't think any of the judges are saying that. We have concerns about the experience of playing against them in certain matchups or situations. Less concretely, we are all concerned about more intangible things as well; how many special attacks are in the canon, how many are we adding, what are their range and attack values? How many activations can other cards in the canon? Etc. The point is that there is a lot more to a good submission than "it's not broken."

[caps]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Thank you for the kind words and feedback Bigga.

In regards to changing the faction to Vydar, does really nobody have an issue with a Vydar Drow?....that just seems off...Drow are inherently, well, “bad”

I take it you've never met Drizzt?

[Pumpkin_King]

I also personally like these guys as Vydar. Gives Vydar a bit of an edge, like he should have, gives space from Kurrok like Bigga said. I also feel like it tells a bit of a story. An Einar orc, Jandar undead, Utgar Agent? That all tells a story without even looking at abilities or background bio.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I take it you've never met Drizzt?

Vydar's a bit shady, so I reckon he could easily harbour a sort of 'splinter Drow' or Drow exile. From what I've gleaned (no D&D expert by any means) I get the impression Drizzt is meant to be an exception rather than a rule, but exceptions do exist, and Vydar isn't a good guy anyway - it'd mark him out less as 'good guy Drow' and more 'not quite evil enough to fit in with the rest of Drow society' Drow, less like Drizzt and more like, say, Viconia from Baldur's Gate (not played that game through yet, but I plan to and have teh internets).
If you thematically don't want to see him as an exile, though, go Utgar, but a Drow exile does have some fun potential and a nice built-in story.

[Tornado]

Not any weirder than Sudema being Vydar.

[superfrog]

I like Utgar, personally.

[Astroking112]

I have to agree with the people pushing for Vydar. It adds a lot more flavor than being just another Drow, and we've already technically seen Drow working with other factions (didn't Estivara revive Valkrill or something along those lines?), so I don't feel like they inherently "belong" to Utgar.

It certainly hints at more of a story to have them all follow Vydar, even without a bio expanding on it. Shadows also seem like a perfect fit for Vydar's aesthetic, far more so than Utgar, which makes the idea even more appealing to me. Add on that Xundar is still somewhat similar to Kurrok, and it feels like a natural way to differentiate the two even further.

It also helps that Vydar isn't a clear-cut good guy, too. If we were talking about Jandar here, then I could see it being more of a sticking point, but Vydar basically epitomizes the self-serving nature of the Drow anyway.

[kevindola]

Seems like we're workshopping, but I'll add my unsolicited opinion. Drow stays Utgar, shadows are Vydar has some flavor to it. (Mika says hi to then when she is phasing)

[caps]

I think we have enough comments at this point (unless the other judges have more to say). This is not a workshop thread, after all.

[Kinseth]

Agreed, enough comments!

[Sir Heroscape]

After some feedback, I've made some cosmetic changes to the faction, most notably changing the General to Vydar. After some good insights and thinking about it myself, I realized it would be pretty cool and I liked the prospect of Vydar having this faction (and they also look pretty good on the card). Other notable changes are:
- Demon's name --> is now Shadow Fiend
- Fiend's move --> lowered to 6
- Binder personality --> is now terrifying to match other shadows
- Wraith Att --> lowered to 2
Of course there was the concern with Xundar's special, but I really do believe it's worth testing out as-is. I don't think it's gamebreaking and allows for the faction to maintain some momentum after losing a few of the Shadows. Another major change I was considering was removing the Wraith entirely from the submission. With so much pushback, I didn't want it to be dead weight to the submission...but I think testing will help show they're just fine, and they could be separately downvoted from the rest of the designs anyway, so I'm not too worried. But I did want you to know I considered both of those options heavily with Xundar and Wraith before submitting again.

So, here we are...
THE SHADOW FACTION! At their head is Xundar (primary submission) and his conjured shadows (4 common heroes, all secondary submissions).





Bio:Taelord called out to halt the line of troops, something wasn't right. Marching on Vydar's forces in the middle of the night was supposed to be a tactical advantage, but the air was too still and his warriors were on edge. "March on!" Taelord barked, "but keep it quiet, there's something out there." As they took a bend in the road, pitch blackness awaited them. An eerie smile, lit only by the soft glow of a sorcerer staff, hung in the middle of the blackness as if suspended on it's own. "Welcome," it said "to my domain."

Xundar is the Drow Archmage from the D&D Rage of Demons line. All the common shadow figures are Reaper Bones: Shadow Demon, Shadow, Shadow Hound, Shadow Tentacle

• Balance
  Xundar: He's the army, plain and simple. Without Xundar, this faction falls flat. He's like unto other commanders that when they fall the army is less productive, but even without a commander the Ashigaru can fight well enough and the FE's without Kurrok are kind of a little army unto themselves and Elves without Ulginesh can do okay as long as they're near other elves. True to theme, the conjured Shadows fall away when their master has fallen. Hence I've made him fairly strong in his ability to move and command shadows in the same turn, but kept him balanced in high pricing, low defense, and a shorter range for his special to keep him from kiting the end game to effectively.
  Shadow Hound: Tank of the army. Holds the line, but without other Shadows around really struggles to produce, also because his power only activates on figures he was not engaged to at the start of his turn.
  Shadow Wraith: Easily the weakest of the lot, though still to be reckoned with when you've got swarming shadows around a poor hero weak of mind and ready to be controlled.
  Shadow Fiend: High movement allows this unit to be the shock troop of the army, swooping in to deal the final blow once the opponents units are confused and preoccupied. The low special attack keeps the from being too overpowered and the low defense makes them easier targets when they do fly in.
  Shadow Binder: These guys strictly act as the map controllers for this army. Their offensive output if very weak (maybe killed like 4-5 figures in the 20 tests I've done), but they provide a tactical advantage for this army that helps them to set up their powers as well as take an opponent out of position.
• Playability Each unit has their own unique ability as well as one common thematic ability. All of their abilities tie them together, to their minis and to the theme. The abilities read easily, are understandable and operate as expected.
• Creativity These units have easily been the most creative I've worked on. Something is just exciting about a conjuring Drow Sorcerer on one end of the battlefield sending his shadow minions out to take an enemy head on. Each unit is created unique and all play AND look good together. They all just FIT.
• Theme Theme drips from the minis, the design and the way they play. Heck, look closely at the mini and you'll notice that Xundar's staff even has the SAME EXACT translucent purple at the top as the shadow minis themselves...just perfect. But yes, the cards powers all have theme roped into them tightly.
• Accessibility Xundar's miniature is widely available for ~3-$4 with over 80 figures currently in market. All the Reaper Shadow minis are also widely available and currently in production directly from the manufacturer (Reaper Minis). You can purchase them off of their website for about $3-$4 a piece.

Playtesting Notes:
- You almost always want 2 Binders in your army, 3 if you've playing a fairly high point game, but rarely 4 (save the points for the other commons)
- The most of a Wraith you should have is 1. Of course you can do more, but the most effective use is to have one on hand IN CASE your opponent has heroes and to try and bring it out into a spot where you can take the opportunity to soul manipulate. I often found though that it didn't pay off as well as I would have liked, but the Wraith was still a strong option and scare tactic.
- You typically want even numbers of Hounds and Demons though if you have an uneven number of them, take the extra Hound. Hounds are great for pushing the frontline and holding the map, while Demons are great for flying in as shock troops from the Startzone and killing something that's been bogged down.
- Keep Xundar safe! That should go without saying, but 6 life and the ability to move can make you a little cocky...because once he's caught, he goes down quick. More so than any other commander out there, he's the weakest defensively AND his army hurts the most once he's gone.

Thank you for your consideration!

[caps]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I like the look of this faction. I agree with Soundwarp's OM reveal point (thanks for addressing it), and I'm concerned about the Soul Manipulation ability as well (although by itself it is not an automatic no). It is interesting to ponder this faction as part of Vydar rather than Utgar.

My biggest concerns with this faction are A) the defense of 4 on the first two shadows--it seems both unjustified by the mini and unrestrained. And B) the attack of 4 on Xundar's special. It seems too consistent of a choice where it should have more risk, I don't like how strong it is in the endgame, and it also feels very unrestrained.

EDIT: I also overlooked the 7 move on the demon. Seems unnecessarily high--very few figures have that much movement.

Altogether, I am a to review but I think the faction is very close, and I like it enough that I would probably buy all of the figures.

My biggest single concern, B) has not changed. to review.

I am persuaded on the defense of 4 on the Shadow Hound. That sells to me. The defense of 4 on the Binder still feels unrestrained, but is less of a deal breaker.