Current Marvel Comics General Discussion

[Dartheyegouger]

Does anyone else read new comics every week? Some of my current favorite (ongoing) series are Immortal Iron Fist, Thunderbolts, Captain America, and Nova.

[Dartheyegouger]

Has anyone been reading The Order or Immortal Iron Fist?

[scottishlad5]

I ma reading, Moon Knight right now, and the civil war Chronicles.

[DarkBladeCB]

Originally Posted by Dartheyegouger

Has anyone been reading The Order or Immortal Iron Fist?

I've read IIF. I am basically at the point where I'm shifting to trades full time. I don't have the time to sort/board/bag/box/read weekly comics anymore. I'd rather just throw everything on a bookshelf. And so many mainstream comics are such garbage these days.

But Immortal Iron Fist is good. I picked up the second HC from Matt Fraction at HeroesCon. Solid. I need to somehow gnab the last two issues of his run, it seems.

The only comics I still read as singles are:
Ultimate Spider-Man, Captain America, Godland, Invincible, X-Factor, Echo, and whatever BPRD/Hellboy stuff is out. And Mice Templar.

[atmospro]

Originally Posted by DarkBladeCB

I've read IIF. I am basically at the point where I'm shifting to trades full time. I don't have the time to sort/board/bag/box/read weekly comics anymore. I'd rather just throw everything on a bookshelf. And so many mainstream comics are such garbage these days.

QFT
And that my friend is where the entire industry is going. Just the two biggies are still kicking screaming about it hanging on to the 32page leaflets. the cost just doesn't make sense anymore. The quicker the Graphic novel becomes the norm the quicker you will see a resurgence in quality and readership.

[DarkBladeCB]

Originally Posted by atmospro

QFT
And that my friend is where the entire industry is going. Just the two biggies are still kicking screaming about it hanging on to the 32page leaflets. the cost just doesn't make sense anymore. The quicker the Graphic novel becomes the norm the quicker you will see a resurgence in quality and readership.

I whole-heartedly agree. Which is why I've finally pulled the plug and given my notice to my store that I'm done. I felt like it was time to stop being a hypocrite and put my money where my mouth is. Though I might still look for some books in singles (if I know they're not being traded). The notable one there being Mice Templar. Echo and RASL I have to assume are being traded.

Thank goodness, too, Vertigo has made the change (though this is the Marvel thread). I've already switched to reading a lot of trades. Exterminators, Scalped, Criminal (hey, that's Marvel), Casanova, Mouse Guard, etc. Whatever I wasn't reading before.

[atmospro]

Here's the problem Marvel and DC provide the creative talent (used loosely) with a regular pay cheque by doing monthly books. Neither company really has the pockets to fund advancements based on a return 6 to 8 months down the road. That's basically how the book industry works. Right now the profit these two are turning come from movies and licensing rights.

And the talent likes to eat.

[TKE545]

I disagree. Though I do see a lot of leaning towards TPB, and it's even made fun of in She-Hulk, which is the only series I read exclusively in TPB format. And, by the way, to anyone who doesn't know, it is not a graphic novel. Maus was a graphic novel. Sandman number 21-28: Seasons of the Mist is a TPB. Sorry. Pet peeve.

As far as picking up books weekly, I read Fantastic Four (and always have), Immortal Iron Fist, Uncanny X-men, X-men Legacy, Black Panther, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Thor. I also pick up whatever mini-series or major event strikes me at the time. As of now, I feel Immortal Iron Fist and Nova are two of the best out there. GOTG is shapping up to be pretty good, too. Anyone who missed Annihilation or any of it's subsequent spin offs have done themselves a great disservice.

But back to my disagreement. I do believe that there has been some good done with the TPB format. For instance, it allows libraries to carry the books. However, the pacing and overall story telling style of the books that are read as a TBP still get there style from being originally published as a monthly book. Plus, if it all moved to graphic novels, each book would be self contained and you would lose the sense of continuation from the previous stories. Also many indy publishers make their money of of variant covers and the like. They would not have a money to publish a full graphic novel without having the income they received from selling the issues individually first. Even if they did, it would be an eggs all in one basket scenario. Many independent companies couldn't get off the ground after their first graphic novel failed.
As far as Marvel and DC go, they wouldn't be the big guns if they were throwing all of their money away. I know a lot of people who still come in and buy the issues as they come out, myself included. Plus, as I've often seen with marvel TPB, the collections are just as expensive as buying the individual issues. If not more. The reason I haven't bought She-hulk:Jaded yet is because they decided to release it as a hardcover first, which makes it more that if I had gotten the issues. Plus, graphic novels would not lend themselves to book-crossovers.

Anyway, that's my 553 cents.

[DarkBladeCB]

Originally Posted by TKE545

I disagree. Though I do see a lot of leaning towards TPB, and it's even made fun of in She-Hulk, which is the only series I read exclusively in TPB format. And, by the way, to anyone who doesn't know, it is not a graphic novel. Maus was a graphic novel. Sandman number 21-28: Seasons of the Mist is a TPB. Sorry. Pet peeve.

As far as picking up books weekly, I read Fantastic Four (and always have), Immortal Iron Fist, Uncanny X-men, X-men Legacy, Black Panther, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Thor. I also pick up whatever mini-series or major event strikes me at the time. As of now, I feel Immortal Iron Fist and Nova are two of the best out there. GOTG is shapping up to be pretty good, too. Anyone who missed Annihilation or any of it's subsequent spin offs have done themselves a great disservice.

But back to my disagreement. I do believe that there has been some good done with the TPB format. For instance, it allows libraries to carry the books. However, the pacing and overall story telling style of the books that are read as a TBP still get there style from being originally published as a monthly book. Plus, if it all moved to graphic novels, each book would be self contained and you would lose the sense of continuation from the previous stories. Also many indy publishers make their money of of variant covers and the like. They would not have a money to publish a full graphic novel without having the income they received from selling the issues individually first. Even if they did, it would be an eggs all in one basket scenario. Many independent companies couldn't get off the ground after their first graphic novel failed.
As far as Marvel and DC go, they wouldn't be the big guns if they were throwing all of their money away. I know a lot of people who still come in and buy the issues as they come out, myself included. Plus, as I've often seen with marvel TPB, the collections are just as expensive as buying the individual issues. If not more. The reason I haven't bought She-hulk:Jaded yet is because they decided to release it as a hardcover first, which makes it more that if I had gotten the issues. Plus, graphic novels would not lend themselves to book-crossovers.

Anyway, that's my 553 cents.

Libraries do carry books. Which is awesome.

As an amateur comic book artist myself, I can tell you that the 22 page limit is a pain in the ass. I hate it. I much prefer--creatively--to have the room to pace my story in accordance to my own whims. Forcing certain things into a 22 page format is extremely limiting creatively and it's a shame that the industry has become so crippled by it.

Your next point is also a matter of personal taste... I personally find continuity dull. It's a huge reason I've dropped almost the entire Marvel and DC super-hero catalogue I grew up with. 40+ years of constant history and build up, coupled with a marketing demand for the status quo to remain constant has made it so nothing of importance can ever happen again. It's made mainstream comics... well, boring. There are exceptions. The first two volumes of the Immortal Iron Fist are excellent (there are some flaws and I'd like it to have been spread out a bit more--some things are shoe horned in... which is a limit of pages). Brubaker's Captain America is excellent. The similarity between these sorts of books? They do stand alone. I read the first two Immortal Iron Fist books and was able to pick them up having never read an Iron Fist story in my life and was able to hum along just fine, as if it were the only Iron Fist story I ever needed to read. This is the way it ought to be. I honestly had no idea until afterwards that Davos and a lot of that work was a part of continuity, because it was presented in a way where that was not important. I was very pleased by this.

To look at Indie Publishers, let's for instance take Top Shelf or Drawn and Quarterly. I assume by variant covers you're referring to someone like Dynamite or, I dunno, Aspen? I'm not sure as to Devil's Due variant cover policy. These companies actually make their money by anchoring their product with licensed books (IDW has Transformers, Dark Horse has Star Wars and Conan, Dynamite does Red Sonja... do they still do the Lone Ranger?, Devil's Due has GI Joe, Boom! just signed with Pixar, etc.) so that they can then go about happily producing whatever they want. So they're well taken care of by the people that NEED a Transformers book, so they can do cool stuff like put out an Ashley Wood book. However, there has been success on the book production front. Top Shelf is clearly the best example of this. The art comics publishers produce BOOKS. They sell them as BOOKS. They sell them to BOOK STORES. And they have been rather succesful. I have been to comic book stores that have never heard of Top Shelf and they lost my business when I tried to order, say, Too Cool to Be Forgotten or the Surrogates, but these books are starting to dominate at my local bookstore. In my opinion, this is the future of the industry. Creatively, at least, this is where I hope to someday push my product. They have produced a model of bringing in top quality recognizable independent talent--both domestically and abroad--and established a good relationship with the bookstore chains. Fantagraphics has done much the same, bringing in top talent--the Brothers Hernandez, Peanuts strips--and made them accessible to book stores. Even Image, with books like the Walking Dead or Elephantmen or Casanova, are seeing books that do atrociously in singles, but do surprisingly well as trades, particularly the Walking Dead.

What a lot of these companies DO do is use the single issues as a marketing tool. They produce them at a loss to drum up interest and exist as a marketing tool in the direct market. But beyond that, they're really hardly financially viable. Even most Marvel books--Runaways, for instance, was like this--was a flop commercially as a single but more than made money back as a collection.

Lemme ask you this, though: would you rather be able to have six issues in one book form you can fit on a nice bookshelf, or would you rather have six floppy issues lying around in a box that you have to bag and board? It's not really much of a contest. My comics aren't disposable anymore. I'd like them to be in a format where I can have easy access to them and on a whim pick up a book and read away, instead of having to slug this big box out and flip through a number of issues to find the 3 issues I want to read of that one decent story. It's as much a practical decision as a political one.

[bjmorga]

I'm a monthly reader since I do Mail Order, but I try to keep up. I'm definitely a marvel fan.

[Dartheyegouger]

Originally Posted by bjmorga

I'm a monthly reader since I do Mail Order, but I try to keep up. I'm definitely a marvel fan.

What do you read?

[TKE545]

DarkBladeCB, while I will give you some of your points, still disagree. While you say that those two volumes of Iron fist were excellent (and they were) I see it as those first 15 issues. Further, while true that you don't need to have read any other Iron fist before volume 1, volume two is lacking without volume one. (I picked up IIF because of Civil War and then later went back and read earlier IF in the essential series). If I am correct in saying, certain things in volume two, such as mentioning of Orson Randall and Jeryn being held captive by hydra, are out of place without volume 1. Certain other aspects of the continuity, while maybe not entirely necessary, certainly add flavor. In volume 1, Danny (yeah, I'm one of those guys who refers to super heroes by their real names) couldn't go to a real hospital. In volume 2, Misty Knight wouldn't let Cage call in the New Avengers. When taken as part of a continual universe, these aspects make more sense and make the story seem (so far as a super-hero book can) more real. It's kind of like in Moon Raker. Sure, you don't need to have seen The Spy Who Loved Me. But if you have, recognizing Jaws (Richard Kiel, not the shark) makes it more enjoyable.
Though you did mention that continuity makes some things boring for trying to maintain the status quo. That is true and false. With long running comics about individuals, that is often true. On the other hand, in groups, the status quo often changes. Rosters change, new characters are introduced, some fade into the background, others come back into the spotlight. Though the overall status quo is maintained so as to allow a jumping in point for new readers. There are so many directions I could take this paragraph at this point I'm going to stop it and move on to the next one.
My next argument against GN as better than issues is that I'm a collector. Sure, I could buy one of the many reprints of all the old Fantastic Four comics in one volume, or 1 DVD rom. But that's not the point. I currently need 8 more issues to complete a run of #200 to current. It's something I like to do. Sure, I have the essentials sitting on my bookshelf, but it's not the same.
Finally(ish), just because one medium exists doesn't mean others can't. I am not saying that the Graphic Novel shouldn't exist. It may not be what GN proponents are meaning to say, but it sounds like they want to do away with traditional comics all together. Again, that's just what it seems to me like you are saying. Graphic Novels offer things that traditional comics don't. As do web comics. And daily comic strips. They are four distinctly different mediums, each with their own merits. Similar to how the album doesn't replace the single in music (though full albums, if taken as a whole, can equal up to more than the sum of it's parts). A similar comparison is a TV series to movies. TV shows should nt be done away with just because people can make full length movies. Besides, changing the format of story telling will not change the market. If all comic books stopped being published, there would be a sudden rise in X-men and Avengers graphic novels and the indy publishers would still be indy and have smaller runs.
My Final Closing Side Notes. If it wasn't for issues, I may have made the mistake of buying entire books of comics I learned I didn't like after one issue.
I do not have enough bookshelf space in my house to set all the comics I have, even if they were condensed into tpb--I prefer my boxes and bags.
Many stories can be told in a single issue. IIF even done it with it's stories about earlier Iron Fists.
Devils Due publishes at least 4 variations of it's Spike/Angel/Buffy-related materials each month.
Ok, I'm going to bed.