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  #457  
Old June 4th, 2020, 09:28 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I prefer to keep them at move 5. No dragon has move 4; I suppose if any would it would be the green wyrm, but as I said back in the day in earlier discussions, changes like that, or dropping their attack, just encourage using them even less dynamically.

Let me toss out a version that didn't come up in earlier discussions:
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 35

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE

If a Green Wyrmling rolls excess shields when defending against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, roll one unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.

WYRMLING BONDING

FLYING
Honestly, I agree with the theoryscape argument that even a full counterstrike isn't broken in a broad sense. But cutting the counterstrike chances in half does temper things considerably.
Fixed.

I do like that version. It's similar to the d20 version but simpler and just makes the odds 50-50.
Fixed again! The easiest way to fix is REMOVE bonding. They still reverse bond with other Wrymlings, but removing bonding stops their strongest builds - with 4th and on mass with Raelin and no other Wrymlings. Another idea to go along with this is to make the Uncommon and have like 3 life and up to ~45-60 points.

Also see Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate which has completed cards for various versions and some good discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
Honestly, my favorite version of the GW was the Uncommon Hero with 3 life, 4/4, 65 points, and my FC. Nobody liked it because it isn't a common hero like the other wyrmlings, but I always thought Charos' defining characteristic was that he was a tank - not really Counterstrike.
Also here is a new mini available for $9 - Juvenile Dragon - Safari Ltdģ

Last edited by lefton4ya; June 4th, 2020 at 09:52 AM.
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  #458  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:08 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

That's about 4 times too big.

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  #459  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:17 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

With 3d printing search Thingverse for wyrmling or dragon and scale to suit.


I really like this:
Quote:
DRAGON
UNCOMMON HERO
WYRMLING
VALIANT

LIFE = 3
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 60?

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
If a Green Wyrmling rolls excess shields when defending against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, roll one unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.

FLYING
Notice conspicuous lack of Wyrmling Bonding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace_of_Spades View Post
...
I agree that counterstrike isn't that powerful...

From Sisyphus' Probability Tables, Counter Strike Wound Chance with 3-5 defense and 1-8 attack:

..... 1.......2.......3.......4.......5......6......7......8
3 0.481 0.315 0.199 0.123 0.074 0.044 0.026 0.015
4 0.605 0.432 0.296 0.197 0.127 0.081 0.050 0.031
5 0.704 0.539 0.395 0.279 0.192 0.128 0.084 0.054
..
So with the fledgling power it reduces odds in half. 4 defense against 3 attack gives 15& chance of counter-strike. Actually I think normal counter-strike would be fine if we made uncommon without bonding.
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  #460  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:35 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

People are insistent on having a green wyrmling (just because Heroscape has a green dragon?), and insistent on it having a form of counterstrike (just because Charos does? even though it goes against the D&D base of the other wyrmlings?), but want to remove one of the wyrmlings signature powers (Wyrmling Bonding) and/or make it Uncommon (unlike every other wrymling)?

I just don't get this obsession with having a Green Wyrmling. Not at all.
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  #461  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:43 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
People are insistent on having a green wyrmling (just because Heroscape has a green dragon?), and insistent on it having a form of counterstrike (just because Charos does? even though it goes against the D&D base of the other wyrmlings?), but want to remove one of the wyrmlings signature powers (Wyrmling Bonding) and/or make it Uncommon (unlike every other wrymling)?

I just don't get this obsession with having a Green Wyrmling. Not at all.
Keeping it as a Common w/ Wyrmling bonding is definitely my goal, as I agree with you to that extent.

I guess the obsession comes from the same place as making an Aquilla Dragon? Itís cool and fills out the lineup.

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  #462  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:46 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I guess the obsession comes from the same place as making an Aquilla Dragon? Itís cool and fills out the lineup.
Fills out the lineup? What about Utgar and Valkirll wyrmlings?
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  #463  
Old June 4th, 2020, 10:57 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I guess the obsession comes from the same place as making an Aquilla Dragon? It’s cool and fills out the lineup.
Fills out the lineup? What about Utgar and Valkirll wyrmlings?
I would have nothing against those either. In fact, it’d be [again] super cool to have a Mimring Wyrmling with Fledgling Fire Line and a Brimstone Wyrmling with Fledgling Heat Blast.

TBF, Brimstone/Quahon are VC added (for better or worse - certainly better - love those guys) to fill out a lineup.

I guess I understand that the D&D transitions aren’t exactly there for Charos/Mimring (or Brimstone for that matter), but you’re gonna tell me that those guys don’t have mini versions of themselves flying around Icaria and Toril?

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Last edited by heroscaper2010; June 4th, 2020 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Or wherever Wyrmlings fly around
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  #464  
Old June 4th, 2020, 11:30 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

FWIW I completely agree with the notion that if symmetry is what is motivating a green Ullar wyrmling with counterstrike (which it is, of course), then creating a wyrmling that is uncommon or lacks bonding goes against that synergy in a pretty obvious way, to such a degree that I think it loses the point.

That said, I think the concerns about wyrmlings + 4th being a power build have always been a bit overblown, and a slightly scaled back version of FC like the one I proposed is really fine.
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  #465  
Old June 4th, 2020, 11:45 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I am not against adding more wyrmlings either. But let me make some things clear.

True symmetry is impossible. Existing wrymlings model their larger Heroscape counterparts. Existing wrymlings are also all D&D-based and have breath weapons. A green wrymling that is not D&D-based and lacks a breath weapon is not like the other wrymlings. That's fine, but let's not pretend that's anything other than ignoring some symmetry for the sake of other symmetry. Same thing with making it a D&D-based green wyrmling.

There has to be a useable miniature. I will not accept a different type of D&D dragon as a green wyrmling. If the others weren't D&D dragons, I might, but they are all D&D dragons. Taking a poodle and calling it a doberman is dumb, even if you say it's a doberman from a different world. D&D dragons are distinct. Finding a dragon miniature that is not a D&D (or, in most cases, Pathfinder) dragon and saying it is from Icaria or whatever is fine.

Finally, the new wrymling, green or otherwise, needs to be distinct somehow. The existing wyrmlings are already somewhat overlapping with their designs and uses. More of that likely won't add much to the game. That's where a counterstrike wyrmling shines the most; it is truly different than the others. I do think there's possibility for a poison breath-based design, though it would be more difficult to make unique.
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  #466  
Old June 4th, 2020, 12:43 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I'm unclear here; are you insisting it be a D&D style green wyrmling model, or would you accept a different green wyrmling mini so long as it wasn't actually a D&D copper wyrmling mini or the like?

FWIW I agree true symmetry is impossible due to the poison breath vs. counterstrike question, but to me this suggests it should have a different homeworld, which to me does divorce it from D&D lore, and concerns about matching D&D conceptions of what a green wyrm looks like, or concerns about run-on sentences.
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  #467  
Old June 4th, 2020, 12:51 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I think it’s more like taking a Pitbull-Boxer and calling it a plain Pit - no one but the extreme dog lovers would care or notice.

It’s like when you introduce your dog to a new person and they ask what breed it is...

“Well...”

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Last edited by heroscaper2010; June 4th, 2020 at 12:54 PM. Reason: And that’s no offense to extreme dog lovers.
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  #468  
Old June 4th, 2020, 01:05 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I'm unclear here; are you insisting it be a D&D style green wyrmling model, or would you accept a different green wyrmling mini so long as it wasn't actually a D&D copper wyrmling mini or the like?
I am ok a D&D green dragon wyrmling, and I am ok with a non-D&D green wyrmling that is not a non-green D&D dragon miniature. For the former, I would be fine as long as the design was based on a D&D green dragon. For the latter, I don't really mind what direction the design takes, as long as it feels like it fits with the other wrymlings. As for re-theming a different type of D&D wyrmling, if there is, for example, a good D&D copper wyrmling miniature, why not make a Copper Wyrmling?

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I think itís more like taking a Pitbull-Boxer and calling it a plain Pit - no one but the extreme dog lovers would care or notice.
Heroscape walked straight into the world of dog shows (D&D lore). It didn't re-theme, it embraced the worlds and core concepts. There is, of course, some elbow room given how broad D&D is, but dragon colors and their designs has become one of the standout (and consistent) features of D&D lore.
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