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  #85  
Old December 16th, 2015, 06:26 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

I agree that the current Israeli government is not really looking for a peace settlement. It is probably the most conservative coalition government in Israeli history, or close to it. If they attempted any sort of settlement with the Palestinian Authority, they would lose a vote of no confidence and they would no longer the the government.

The nice thing about Israel (among other things) is that it's a democracy. There are plenty of people in Israel who would support a reasonable peace deal, and who would even be willing to set aside the betrayals of the last serious negotiation and put the last serious deal back on the table. Those people will get their turn in power, particularly if moderate voices in the Palestinian Authority gain enough of a voice to give the Israeli electorate some hope.

It's happened before. Begin gave up land to get peace with Egypt. Rabin created the same freamework, at great cost. Barak tried, very hard, and would have finished what Rabin started were it not for Arafat's refusal. More recently, Olmert never got very far, but did seem to make a sincere effort at progress.

It will happen again. The only question is, will there be Palestinian leadership on the other side of the table willing to do what Arafat did not, and take yes for an answer.
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  #86  
Old December 16th, 2015, 06:32 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Two state (nations) are hard. As far as I know the only "Sucessful" Multi nation countries include great Britain (england and scotland) and Canada (quebec and the rest of canada).

Why do these succeed? Perhaps common religion (if you consider catholosim and other forms of Christianity the same) or similar culture. It is actually a wonder the French and English in Canada get along considering historically France and England were hardly on good terms.

I think it actually boils down to the health of the people. Canada has lots of resources, so there is much to go around. When the peoples needs are satisfied wars can end (not do end).

This is the danger of Religion over riding human rights. If the Government stays out of your afairs you are less likely to revolt or terrorize. This is why the IRA fizzled, Berlin Wall fell and cold war closed. Secularism and indivual rights started to override Religionus dominace and nationalism.

Sadly as long as Religion (or any ideology that ranks the the group above basic human rights) rules a land peace will be difficult.

...I guess I'm referring to those moderate voices that @dok referee to. My gut tells me they put human (re. god given) rights above religious doctrine.


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  #87  
Old December 16th, 2015, 08:20 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Israel's treatment of Palestine IS objectively, categorically immoral. This doesn't even begin to justify the campaign of terror that Hamas has embarked upon, certainly. But to deny the constant human rights violations (as reported on regularly by organizations like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the UN Commission for Human Rights, and more) and apartheid state currently in place is simply heartless. If you are a Palestinian today, you are inferior to an Israeli by any practical metric - and you can justify that with the need for security in a unstable region, but... something, something, liberty, security, losing both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Lazy Orang,

If Palestinians genuinely wanted peace, they could have it. What they want is peace on their terms. What Israel wants is peace on Israel's terms. You are, in essence, arguing that the Palestinians have more justification behind the terms they want to achieve in peace. In order to make that justification, I think you need to look at the history and show why.

~Aldin, consideringly
This is disingenuous at best. Israel HAS peace on its terms. Look at the numbers for, say, the Israel-Gaza conflict of the past decade - raw casualties, killed and wounded, add up to ~100 on the Israeli side and ~20,000 on the Palestinian side. That's 200 times greater. This is not a conflict between two equal powers - this is a conflict between a modern, militarized army and poorly-armed militias, a conflict which takes place almost entirely on Palestinian territory.

Hamas sends rockets into Israel - unacceptable. Palestinians live in a regular warzone, with spotty access to basic necessities and rights (lack of water, lack of legal land ownership, lack of access to the justice system, outright segregation), which Israel's government turns a blind eye to - unacceptable.

Hamas is a lost cause. Israel is a modern, democratic nation that should be held to a higher standard.
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  #88  
Old December 16th, 2015, 09:51 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Israel has peace???? It's not fighting this battle in its own territory???

And you're accusing Aldin of being disingenuous?

I am sure the people of Israel would love to know that this is peace, and not a daily battle fought inside its own borders. And heaven help me when my standards are so low that I would call that peace for my own home.

Israel does not have peace.

Gaza may have no infrastructure on the surface, but it's had plenty of foreign aid and opportunities to build it. Unfortunately, that money and those resources get poured - literally, in the form of concrete - into an infrastructure that does not serve the people who live there.

Of course Hamas is a lost cause. Of course Israel should be held to a higher standard. Indeed, it *is* held to a higher standard. In fact, it's held to an *impossibly* high standard. Johnny, what should we do, if our country were the size of New Jersey, and almost every single day people affiliated with the same cause attacked us inside our borders?

The HRW link you pointed to was to a criticism of last summer's assault into Gaza, in which Israel was trying to destroy the tunnels that terrorists used to cross into Israel, and kill and kidnap Israelis. I get it, civilians were hurt, it is truly tragic. But what is a modern, democratic nation to do, when your enemy is launching rockets from right next to a hotel, as you can see in the video above? I mean, really, are you supposed to knock on the door before you hit a building with a missile? I mean, what kind of artillery assault does that? I mean, other than this one?

Anyway. UN Human Rights Council? The name sounds cool. I wonder what it does, let's look closer:
Spoiler Alert!

There are many parts of the world where Jews in general, and Israel in particular, are the mortal enemy because they have the temerity to exist. It would be strange indeed if international agencies were immune from the pressure groups of that size and wealth can bring.

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  #89  
Old December 16th, 2015, 10:46 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

D_S, the last two sources you linked supporting a war on Israel include an op-ed by an Israeli diplomat and a conservative news site. Hardly impartial reports.
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  #90  
Old December 16th, 2015, 11:02 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

SoA, they are loaded with verifiable facts, including who sits on the Human Rights Council of the UN and when, and there are quotes. This is the second time that you've challenged something I've posted because, you assert, there is (to you) a reasonable likelihood that the content is an outright lie.

Well, it seems most of the sources about "Hate Israel Day" at the UN are associated with Israel, Judaism, or the right. Perhaps because this issue has a special interest to Israel or something, right?

I do not know why the American right tends to be pro-Israel, but I'm ok with it. Sometimes I wonder if the American left leans more the other way because the right likes it, or maybe Democrats are easily swayed by the fact that Israel has warplanes and Hamas does not. Anyway, I went several pages into Google about Hate Israel Day at the Human Rights Council and the sources were associated with Israel, so I guess they're no good to you.

Were you interested in the door-knocker piece? Where it showed you a video, taken by an Arab media outlet, showing a *15-minute delay* between when the first rocket, with no warhead, hit, and then the building was destroyed? Enough time for every single person to get out of the building? Had you heard of that already? Is that how you would conduct a war, against people who were trying to destroy your homeland?

Anyway, the Wikipedia entry on the UN Human Rights Council is consistent with both the links I shared:
Quote:
Israel[edit]
See also: Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations
Overview[edit]
As of 2015, Israel has been condemned in 62 resolutions by the Council since its creation in 2006—the Council has resolved more resolutions condemning Israel than the rest of the world combined.[58] By April 2007, the Council had passed eleven resolutions condemning Israel, the only country which it had specifically condemned.[59] Toward Sudan, a country with human rights abuses as documented by the Council's working groups, it has expressed "deep concern".[59]

The council voted on 30 June 2006 to make a review of alleged human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session. The Council's special rapporteur on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict is its only expert mandate with no year of expiry. The resolution, which was sponsored by Organisation of the Islamic Conference, passed by a vote of 29 to 12 with five abstentions. Human Rights Watch urged it to look at international human rights and humanitarian law violations committed by Palestinian armed groups as well. Human Rights Watch called on the Council to avoid the selectivity that discredited its predecessor and urged it to hold special sessions on other urgent situations, such as that in Darfur.[60]

The Special Rapporteur on the question of Palestine to the previous UNCHR, the current UNHRC and the General Assembly was, between 2001 and 2008, John Dugard. Bayefski quotes him as saying that his mandate is to "investigate human rights violations by Israel only, not by Palestinians".[61] Dugard was replaced in 2008 with Richard Falk, who has compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians with the Nazis' treatment of Jews during the Holocaust.[62][63][64] Like his predecessor, Falk's mandate only covers Israel’s human rights record.[65] The Palestinian Authority has informally asked Falk to resign, among other reasons due to viewing him as "a partisan of Hamas". Falk disputes this and has called the reasons given "essentially untrue".[66] In July 2011, Richard Falk posted a cartoon some critics has described as anti-Semitic onto his blog. The cartoon depicted a bloodthirsty dog with the word "USA" on it wearing a kippah, or Jewish headcovering.[67][68][69][70] In response, Falk was heavily criticized by world leaders in the United States and certain Europen countries.[71] The United States called Falk's behavior "shameful and outrageous" and "an embarrassment to the United Nations", and officially called on him to resign. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, chairwoman of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs, called on Falk to resign as well. The Anti-Defamation League described the cartoon as a "message of hatred".[72][73][74]

The UN Human Rights Council was castigated by Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu for facilitating an event featuring a Hamas politician. The Hamas parliamentarian had spoken at an NGO event in the UN Geneva building. Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations Ron Prosor denounced the speech stating that Hamas was an internationally recognized terrorist organization that targeted civilians. “Inviting a Hamas terrorist to lecture to the world about human rights is like asking Charles Manson to run the murder investigation unit at the NYPD”, he said.[75]

On 3 July 2015, UNHRC voted Resolution A/HRC/29/L.35 "ensuring accountability and justice for all violations of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem.".[76] It passed by 41 votes in favor including the eight sitting EU members (France, Germany, Britain, Ireland, the Netherlands, Portugal, Latvia and Estonia), 1 against (the US) and 5 absentions (India, Kenya, Ethiopia, Paraguay and Macedonia. India precised that its abstention was due to the reference to International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Resolution whereas "India is not a signatory to the Rome Statute establishing the ICC".[77]

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  #91  
Old December 16th, 2015, 11:22 PM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
This is the danger of Religion over riding human rights. If the Government stays out of your afairs you are less likely to revolt or terrorize. This is why the IRA fizzled, Berlin Wall fell and cold war closed. Secularism and indivual rights started to override Religionus dominace and nationalism.

Sadly as long as Religion (or any ideology that ranks the the group above basic human rights) rules a land peace will be difficult.
One of the most stridently atheist regimes in history collapsed because religion receded? Can you explain that to me? It seems completely backwards.

I see things the other way--from where I sit, the West's ideas of human rights are rooted in Western religious ideals. I contend that Christianity (or "Judeo-Christian values" if you prefer) is a core force of Western history. "Religious" violence (in the West, at least) has traditionally been more politically motivated than actually religious. The most violent and oppressive regimes in history have been dramatically "secular" (the French Revolution, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.)

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Israel may not have a perfect track record with Palestine, but they put a truly remarkable effort into giving civilians fair warning to get away. I'm embarrassed to say that my own country cannot make anything like the same claim.

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  #92  
Old December 17th, 2015, 08:50 AM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
The HRW link you pointed to was to a criticism of last summer's assault into Gaza, in which Israel was trying to destroy the tunnels that terrorists used to cross into Israel, and kill and kidnap Israelis. I get it, civilians were hurt, it is truly tragic. But what is a modern, democratic nation to do, when your enemy is launching rockets from right next to a hotel, as you can see in the video above? I mean, really, are you supposed to knock on the door before you hit a building with a missile? I mean, what kind of artillery assault does that? I mean, other than this one?
Defending your own country at all costs is the understandable, sensible, and easy thing to do when you're under attack. This does NOT, however, make it justifiable by any means necessary. If defending yourself results in the degree of suffering that currently exists among the Palestinians - a degree significantly higher than the amount of suffering that those in Israel suffer - than I consider those methods immoral.

I'm not an expert on Israel. I won't pretend to be. But I see a nation where one group is living with full rights and another is living as second-class citizens. That's unjust and immoral regardless of circumstance.

I mean, isn't that what this thread is about? The United States has lost many, MANY lives due to terrorist attacks with radical Islamist roots. Would this justify deporting Muslims? Denying them full citizenship? Segregating them? No, of course not.

"Well, the circumstances are different." They are, obviously. But if anything, any action you take, requires you to institute an apartheid state, it's simply not worth it.
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  #93  
Old December 17th, 2015, 09:25 AM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Johnny, Gaza has received mountains of foreign aid. It's gone underground into miles and miles of tunnels, used for smuggling, hiding military equipment, and terror. If only it would stop attacking Israel, it would have more open borders. Egypt is destroying smuggler's tunnels into that country, too.

At what point are the destitute conditions of Gaza the responsibility of the people running it? If your destitute neighbor had vowed to destroy you and murder your family, and would not back down from that pledge, would you allow him to roam around your house? Do you think he might listen, if you suggested another way to raise his children? I am aware that Hamas is not likely going to change. But that does not mean that its ideology, or its warriors, should be welcome outside its borders.

Your "apartheid" language is not quite right, by the way. After all, in South Africa, the "second-class citizens" had not written into their charter that they would destroy their oppressors, and had not pursued a campaign of terror against them.

You posted above that the battle was being not being fought inside Israel, and that Israel has peace, and then you asked us to take seriously censure by the UN Council on Human Rights. I feel like I've effectively addressed all those points, and if you're ready to walk them back, that's fine. If all you have left is strong language about an "apartheid state," you've said that already.

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  #94  
Old December 17th, 2015, 09:27 AM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
If defending yourself results in the degree of suffering that currently exists among the Palestinians - a degree significantly higher than the amount of suffering that those in Israel suffer - than I consider those methods immoral.
Here it is again, dangit! The implication that the Israelis are being too efficient at defending themselves. If they'd only allow more Israeli suffering then they're good.

*yeesh*

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  #95  
Old December 17th, 2015, 09:54 AM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
At what point are the destitute conditions of Gaza the responsibility of the people running it? If your destitute neighbor had vowed to destroy you and murder your family, and would not back down from that pledge, would you allow him to roam around your house? Do you think he might listen, if you suggested another way to raise his children? I am aware that Hamas is not likely going to change. But that does not mean that its ideology, or its warriors, should be welcome outside its borders.
I'd move. And if my defense tactic was kidnapping my neighbor's children to use as human shields, well, I'd probably go to jail.

I'm not going to go down a rabbit hole of argument here for two reasons - firstly, because there's a lack of unbiased sources. I'll ignore yours, because they're militaristic right-wing Islamophobic trash. You'll ignore mine because they're anti-semitic terrorist-apologist trash. The only objective source is the numbers, which are horrific on both sides - we don't need to play Tragedy Olympics here.

Moreover, because there's a fundamental difference of opinion - I don't consider my life more valuable than anyone else's. That includes bad people, and that DEFINITELY includes innocent people. I consider excessive force in self-defense to be immoral. To kill a man, even a man that has threatened or hurt you, is wrong. There is no end that justifies those means. So, yeah, @Aldin - allowing more Israeli suffering, if it means less Palestinian suffering to an equal or greater degree, would be the morally right thing to do. That's what every decent moral leader in the world has taught - Buddha to Jesus to Gandhi straight on through. We should hold ourselves to that standard.

That's naive, that's childish, but I'm not willing to live my life without some basic moral parameters. Do no harm is number one. Nail me to the cross, shoot me in the head, burn my house, curse my name - you are a human being, and you deserve just the same as me.
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  #96  
Old December 17th, 2015, 10:04 AM
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Re: I don't get it - and I don't want to (re: Muslims)

*You* are the one playing "Tragedy Olympics," as if we could keep score by counting corpses. My sources have included Wikipedia, Arab and French media outlets, moderate news outlets focused on the Middle East, and hard data from the Israeli government. Sure, I mixed in *one* conservative media piece, but even that was consistent with what was later documented in the Wikipedia article I also cited. You're saying it was *all* "militaristic right-wing Islamophobic trash"? Sounds more like you didn't look at any of them. Which is fine, but at least admit it.

I don't care to play "Tragedy Olympics." It's foul, it's morbid, it adds nothing to the conversation, and, as Aldin has said repeatedly, it's misleading.

Finally, you have not addressed my response to your point about poverty in Gaza: it is caused, in large part, by its own leadership. So comparing Gaza's poverty to Israel's prosperity is misleading.

It seems to me you don't really want to engage here, as I hinted above. Which is fine. It doesn't mean you agree. But let's not pretend that you're actually responding to my argument.

It also seems to me from your last post that you would have the Israeli Jews throw open the doors to Gaza and, if they don't want to live next to people who want to kill them, they should leave their homes. Which is an opinion you are certainly entitled to have. But that leaves us far enough apart that I don't think there's anything left to discuss, because I believe Israel has a right to exist, where it is. If we can't agree on that much, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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