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Old March 28th, 2008, 05:57 PM
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Defense Wins Championships (Order Markers 5)

Defense Wins Championships (OM V)

This is something that I’ve been speculating about ever since I wrote my first order marker article, and it seems to continue to be true. Just as pitching and solid fielding are important to winning consistently in baseball, defensive play and map control seem to be key to winning Heroscape tournaments. Offense can certainly win games, but defense wins championships.

Thanks to Rÿchean's Competitive Tournament Armies thread and gamjuven’s Tournament Champions thread, I’m finally able to see this theory in action. It doesn’t adequately explain everything, but I’ll see what I can do about the outliers. The format has borrowed heavily from gamjuven's thread that I mention above, but the small difference is adding the categories to it, and trying to get a pattern out of it. If you're unfamiliar with these classifications, go here.

My latest thoughts on these colors can also be described in this way:

Support units-(don’t activate very often):
Defenders use the power of engagement to restrict opponent’s movements and reduce their turn effectiveness. Examples: Gladiatrons, Deathreavers, Sentinels of Jandar
Cheerleaders use their auras and enhancements to make other units’ order markers more effective. Examples: Swog Rider, Raelin, Marcus Decimus Gallus

Active units:
Sharks are units which require careful protection and constant movement and activation, but can be deadly as long as their support holds out. Examples: Airborne Elite, Venoc Vipers, Cyprien Esenwein
Bread and butter units are powerful squads that can dish out and take beatings effectively for their point cost. Best used early to mid-game. If played well, you won’t see “late game.” Examples: Blastatrons, Valiant 4th Mass
Menacers are tough, balanced, but somewhat expensive units. They have fewer attacks than BB’s, but can be a threat throughout a game. Examples: Major Q9, Minions of Utgar, Krav Maga Agents
Cleanup units are late game run-and-gun types that will most assuredly take out their point cost at the end. Examples: Kaemon Awa, Guilty McCreech, Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM)

Spider_Poison
Gencon Championship '06 (500 pts) 8-0
Krug, Raelin, Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x3

Spider_Poison
Mindshackle Tourney '06 (400 pts) 4-0
Ne-Gok-Sa, Roman Legionnaires x2, Me-Burq-Sa, Marro Warriors, Krav Maga Agents

Spider_Poison
Win-A-Wave Tournament '07 (400 pts) 3-0
Marro Stingers x4, Deathreavers x2, Raelin

Spider_Poison
Austin, MN Tourney '08 (500 pts) 5-0
Gladiatrons x3, Blastatrons x2, Raelin, Marcu, Isamu

Spider Poison
Tree Town Open II (500 pts) 5-0
4th Mass x4, Charos

Spider Poison
Tree Town Open III (530 pts) 6-0
Stingers x4, Deathreavers x2, Raelin, Kaemon Awa, Isamu

Spider Poison
Austin MN 2006 (400 pts) 5-0
3x Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x3, Krug, Raelin

Lonewolf
Gencon Slugfest 2007 ( 400 pts) 3-0
Knights of Weston x4, Alastair

Lonewolf
National Heroscape Day - AZ '07 (400 pts Duel in the Desert) 6-0
Marro Stingers x6, Deathreavers

Lonewolf
New Years Day Tournament AZ '08 (400 pts) 3-0
4th Mass x2, Romans x3, Marcus Gallus, Isamu

Lonewolf
Win-A-Wave Tournament '07 (400 pts) 3-0
Blastatrons x2, Gladiatrons x2, Kaemon Awa

Rÿchean
Big'Ole Monster Gencon '07 (400 pts) 5-0
Q9, Nilfheim, Isamu, Marcu

Rÿchean
Dallas Team Feb '07 (550 pts 2 player teams) 5-0
Major Q9, Krav Maga Agents (funrun), Nakita Agents, Laglor, Deathreavers (Rÿchean)

Rÿchean
Dallas Team Feb '08 (600 pts 2 player teams) 4-0
Krav, Marro Stingers x3 (funrun), Nilfheim, Deathreavers x2, Marro Warriors (Rÿchean)

Gamjuven
Western PA Tournament '07 (450 pts) 4-1
Major Q9, Raelin (RotV), Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers x2
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ead.php?t=9262

Gamjuven
2nd Western PA '07 (500 pts) 4-1
Cyprien Esenwein, Sonya Esenwein, Krug, Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x2, Isamu
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=10367

Gamjuven
4th Western PA '08 (500 pts) 5-0
Marro Stingers x5, Deathreavers x2, Airborne Elite, Isamu
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=16069

ollie
Roll Shields or Die October 2007 (500 pts, Marvel allowed, no glyphs) 4-0
Braxas, Venom, Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=12955

ollie
UConn Rise of the Husky Tournament, CT, March '08 (450pts, Marvel allowed, no glyphs) 4-1
Venom, Stingers x3, Airborne Elite, Isamu

Elstree
[i]NHSD Emerald City Heroscapers Tournament[/i (500 pts) 4-0-1
Marro Stingers x4, minions of Utgar x2, Marcu, Isamu

Kahrma
Kansas City Heroscapers Nov 4th '07 (410 pts) 5-1
Q9, Marro Stingers x3, Marro Warriors

Kahrma
KC Hextreme Mayhem Jan 12th '07 (500 pts) 5-0
Q9, Krav Maga Agents, 4th Mass x3, Isamu

UranusPChicago
1st DFW Tournament (400 pts only RotV and Wave 1) 5-0
Marcus Decimus Gallus, Roman Legionnaires x2, Ne-Gok-Sa, Izumi Samurai, Marro Warriors

UranusPChicago
2nd DFW Tournament (400 pts) 6-0
Marcus Decimus Gallus, Roman Legionnaires x2, 4th Mass x2, Me-Burq-Sa

Revdyer
3rd DFW (singles) Oct '07 (500 pts) 5-0
4th Mass x4, Sentinels of Jandar x2

Sweetcurse
Houston '07 (400 pts) 4-0
Raelin, Elite Onyx Vipers, Izumi, Marro Warriors, Krav Maga Agents

Alastair MacDirk
Norcal Jan 20th '07 (450 pts) 5-1
Major Q9, Deathreavers x3, Raelin, 4th mass
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...=asc&start=180

arp12
Marlboro vs. The World, VT, March 2008 (500 pts) 4-0
Roman Legionnaires x3, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Ne-Gok-Sa, Me-Burq-Sa, Airborne Elite

matrixrenegade
Gencon '07 Heat of Battle (400 Pts) 5-0
Knights of Weston x3, Sir Hawthorne, Sir Denrick

Cornpuff
Emerald City Heroscapers 3/15/08 (500 pts) 4-0
Grimnak, Blade Gruts x2, Nilfheim, Guilty, Raelin

Clarrissimus
Chicagoland tourney March 1st (500 pts common squads x2 only) 4-1
Alastair MacDirk, MacDirk Warriors x2, Major Q10, Marro Warriors

Dennis
PA Mitten's Invitational '08 (500 pts melee only) 5-0
Su-Bak-Na, Drones x6, Marcu, Isamu

Royaldoy
3rd Western PA Tournament '07 (500 pts) 4-1
Major Q9, Raelin, Nakita Agents, Tagawa Samurai

Messenger
Canton Ohio NHSD '07 (465 pts no Raelin, Q9) 7-0
4th Mass x5, Sergeant Drake RotV
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=13388

Velenne
December '06 DFW Invitational (500 Pts) 3-0
Charos, Braxas, Deathreavers x2

Phloid
Outpost 2K Open, MN (550 pts) 5-0
Major Q9, Raelin, Laglor, Krav Maga Agents, 2x Deathreavers

MattserTruckRally
GenCon '07 Championship (500 pts) 7-1
Major Q9, Raelin, Laglor, Krav Maga Agents, Marcu Esenwein, Isamu


Now, that's a lot of pretty colors, but they're making me sad.

Seriously though, I see some patterns. Shark units are very scarce, but they seem to show up more often when the rules are slightly different. Ollie's Marvel victories show that having a good, hard-hitting answer to Marvel units (if they are available) is probably important. Clarissimus' victory with an extremely offensive army came at place where no more than 2 of any commons were allowed. Messenger's offensive army won when starting zones were expanded to 32 hexes.

Othwerwise, having a defensive, or non-order marker-intensive unit seems to pay off. Even in the active parts of armies, Menacers like Q9, Krav, and Marro Stingers are often preferred, and the ages of massive common squad scape with 4+ attacks seems to be dwindling, although the 4th are still going strong.

I will admit that this is certainly open to debate. By definition, most Menacers are units that are on spider_poison's A list, so this might not come as a surprise to many that they keep winning tournaments. But the main reason that I put them in there is that they are balanced offensively and defensively. The second is that they have fewer attacks per activation than their bread and butter counterparts.

Furthermore, just because a unit is a cheerleader, that doesn't make it defensive. Marcus and Gilbert are both Cheerleaders and thus kind of good without stepping into the fray, but their bonuses are primarily offensive in nature. Swogs and Grimnak do a little bit of everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:00 PM
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J-Unit94 knows what's in an order marker J-Unit94 knows what's in an order marker
Nice article

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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:11 PM
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This thread is very confusing to me. I see how you are trying to make the point that having a defensively based army can win tournaments just as well as those who have a full-out offensively based army.

However, I don't understand why you have some units as one color in some armies, and another color in others. For example, I have seen 4th mass as Menacers in some, while being BB in another, and Romans as BB or Defenders.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say, and I am wondering what is the reasoning for this.

Overall, I find this thread to be a valuable source of information.

PS. Why is (Order Markers 5) at the end of the Thread Title? Even though you were trying to show how defenders can come in handy at times, the words "order marker" were only referred to about 2 times throughout your entire post, and it didn't seem like it was about how to use defensive units with your order markers.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:26 PM
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Interesting, but I think it shows the tendancy of better players to choose consistency over potential at least as much as it shows the relative value of shark units in tournament environments.

Hey, Jexik, did you mean to post this in the strategy section? I can move it if you like.

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or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomolka
This thread is very confusing to me...

However, I don't understand why you have some units as one color in some armies, and another color in others. For example, I have seen 4th mass as Menacers in some, while being BB in another, and Romans as BB or Defenders.
This was explained in my most recent one, number 4 in the series. The short way to think about is that in a weird Heroscape Vacuum, [Valiant] 4th Mass and Roman Legionnares are BB units. When in the same army, Romans shift to defenders, and 4th Mass shift to sharks. I made also made the 4th Mass into sharks whenever they weren't Valiant, and a cleanup squad in one case where they were not present in multiples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomolka
PS. Why is (Order Markers 5) at the end of the Thread Title?
It's part of a series of things I've done using these categories. It uses the earlier theory to explain something else. Much like OM III, not that much of the discussion deals directly with order markers themselves, but I use the categories as a visual to try to characterize these armies in a bigger way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin
Interesting, but I think it shows the tendancy of better players to choose consistency over potential at least as much as it shows the relative value of shark units in tournament environments.
Which is part of the reason that I like both Cyprien and the Stingers. They have a nice mix of consistency and a bit of d20 potential. Airborne Elite probably fall into that same category, and they seem to pop up now and then as well. You're right in that this might be nothing new. I shouldn't have rushed this sequel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin
Hey, Jexik, did you mean to post this in the strategy section? I can move it if you like.
I put it here because it deals specifically with tournaments and competitive armies. Unless you feel that it's out of place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old March 28th, 2008, 09:04 PM
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Although I don't always comment, I do read all your order marker threads with interest. And I think this one could yield even more info you were somehow able to confirm just how the players used their pieces.

For example, some people use Me-Burq-Sa as a shark with Romans instead of as cleanup. How did spider_poison use him in the Mindshackle Tournament of GenCon '06?

What about Kaemon Awa? Was he cleanup for Lonewolf in his Win-a-Wave '07 victory or menacer? Did these roles change from match to match depending on army matchups? Did Kaemon work better in one role than in another?

Lots of work for you, of course and I don't expect you to interview everybody on this list. But it is worth considering.

I never lay awake at night wondering how to design an army that will help me win 40% of my games. -- Jexik

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Old March 29th, 2008, 07:06 AM
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Re: Defense Wins Championships (Order Markers 5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
Messenger's offensive army won when Q9 and Raelin were not allowed, and starting zones were expanded to 32 hexes.
Just to give Messenger's army a little more credit, Q9 and Raelin were allowed there (in fact, I lost in the top 8 to them), but they were discouraged by a special prize to one who didn't use them, along with some other units. However, Jexik's main point remains.

I think it all comes down to "less places to put order markers = good" and "units that can provide benefits without order markers = good." As Jexik's been saying in all of these articles, being able to keep your markers on units that do damage while the rest of your army is still providing a benefit to you is key.

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Old March 29th, 2008, 10:34 AM
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Alright, I fixed it, KC. I wasn't trying to discredit him. Going 7-0 is no small feat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old March 29th, 2008, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
Alright, I fixed it, KC. I wasn't trying to discredit him. Going 7-0 in is no small feat.
I know you weren't - just wanted to clarify it. 7-0 is amazing, especially in a field of 40 that included a lot of top-notch players

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Old March 29th, 2008, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarissimus
Although I don't always comment, I do read all your order marker threads with interest. And I think this one could yield even more info you were somehow able to confirm just how the players used their pieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
Ollie's Marvel victories show that having a good, hard-hitting answer to Marvel units (if they are available) is probably important.
So, here is what I was thinking, in terms of your categories.

Roll Shields or Die October 2007:
Braxas, Venom, Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers .

The Krav Maga Agents were used as a decoy, so I'm not sure quite how to categorise them. The plan was to send out the rats followed by the KMA, setting up to look like I was sticking to that plan for a while, and then suddenly pile order markers on Braxas for as long as she looks like holding up. The hope was that using the X on the KMA, along with their previous aggression, would give Braxas longer to do her stuff. In each of the four games, Braxas took out over 250pts---often much more---and Venom was rarely called upon to do anything significant.

UConn Rise of the Husky Tournament, CT, March '08:
Venom, Stingers x3, Airborne Elite, Isamu.

My plan at least was to follow your colors. I think that when Marvel is allowed, all-out attack becomes a more viable strategy. The stingers flopped though, rarely seeming to pull their weight. Venom carried the army on more than one occasion, and was sturdy enough to be considered a menacer. I used him as such more and more as the tournament progressed. Whether this was due to his stats, or to the dice rolls on the day, I couldn't say.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 02:03 PM
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Wow, you make some of the best threads Jexik. AWESOME job! , two thumbs up!
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Old March 29th, 2008, 02:41 PM
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Alright, I took some of these suggestions into account. I completely changed up the Mindshackle tournament results from spider's entry. Because killing NGS was the goal of the tournament, I'm assuming that he wasn't sent into the fray, so he's cleanup. Since MBS is pretty good at killing NGS, I made him a shark.*

I took ollie's report too, thanks for the info! I left the Krav as menacers, largely because I still think that's the best category. Part of the idea behind that category is that it often engenders more fear and ire from your opponents than they should, even though they aren't quite as offensive as other units. Although defenders are usually thought of as the decoys, they tend to try to engage their foes.

*Here comes a tangent. For better or worse, the cleanup and shark categories often seem completely indistinguishable when it comes to heroes that bond. Almost any hero with just one or two attacks can be cleanup. I've even seen Marcus Decimus Gallus kill about his point total against scattered squad figures at the end of a game. Point cost is the only real reason that heroes like Venoc Warlord, Su-Bak-Na, and Alastair MacDirk are sharks and Me-Burq-Sa is cleanup. The idea is that the more expensive heroes will be activated sooner along with their squads in the hope of killing more units, and they lend a more offensive character to the squads they bond with. Me-Burq-Sa is cheaper, and a little less dangerous than the above. In the absence of a squad to bond with, most heroes become cleanup figures, or cheerleaders if they still have benefits or auras to offer.

Nilfheim is a figure that I am never sure how to classify, even though I play him at least as much as any other hero. I originally had him listed as a shark, and later changed him to a menacer. His special attack makes him one of the most potent offensive units in the game, and he's easier for squads to take out than Major Q9, but I still feel that he seems a little harder to bring down than Braxas. In an army with enough squads and high enough points, he can very capably take over the cleanup role.

Quote:
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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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