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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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Defense Wins Championships (Order Markers 5)
Defense Wins Championships (OM V)
This is something that I’ve been speculating about ever since I wrote my first order marker article, and it seems to continue to be true. Just as pitching and solid fielding are important to winning consistently in baseball, defensive play and map control seem to be key to winning Heroscape tournaments. Offense can certainly win games, but defense wins championships. Thanks to Rÿchean's Competitive Tournament Armies thread and gamjuven’s Tournament Champions thread, I’m finally able to see this theory in action. It doesn’t adequately explain everything, but I’ll see what I can do about the outliers. The format has borrowed heavily from gamjuven's thread that I mention above, but the small difference is adding the categories to it, and trying to get a pattern out of it. If you're unfamiliar with these classifications, go here. My latest thoughts on these colors can also be described in this way: Support units-(don’t activate very often): Defenders use the power of engagement to restrict opponent’s movements and reduce their turn effectiveness. Examples: Gladiatrons, Deathreavers, Sentinels of Jandar Cheerleaders use their auras and enhancements to make other units’ order markers more effective. Examples: Swog Rider, Raelin, Marcus Decimus Gallus Active units: Sharks are units which require careful protection and constant movement and activation, but can be deadly as long as their support holds out. Examples: Airborne Elite, Venoc Vipers, Cyprien Esenwein Bread and butter units are powerful squads that can dish out and take beatings effectively for their point cost. Best used early to mid-game. If played well, you won’t see “late game.” Examples: Blastatrons, Valiant 4th Mass Menacers are tough, balanced, but somewhat expensive units. They have fewer attacks than BB’s, but can be a threat throughout a game. Examples: Major Q9, Minions of Utgar, Krav Maga Agents Cleanup units are late game run-and-gun types that will most assuredly take out their point cost at the end. Examples: Kaemon Awa, Guilty McCreech, Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM) Spider_Poison Gencon Championship '06 (500 pts) 8-0 Krug, Raelin, Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x3 Spider_Poison Mindshackle Tourney '06 (400 pts) 4-0 Ne-Gok-Sa, Roman Legionnaires x2, Me-Burq-Sa, Marro Warriors, Krav Maga Agents Spider_Poison Win-A-Wave Tournament '07 (400 pts) 3-0 Marro Stingers x4, Deathreavers x2, Raelin Spider_Poison Austin, MN Tourney '08 (500 pts) 5-0 Gladiatrons x3, Blastatrons x2, Raelin, Marcu, Isamu Spider Poison Tree Town Open II (500 pts) 5-0 4th Mass x4, Charos Spider Poison Tree Town Open III (530 pts) 6-0 Stingers x4, Deathreavers x2, Raelin, Kaemon Awa, Isamu Spider Poison Austin MN 2006 (400 pts) 5-0 3x Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x3, Krug, Raelin Lonewolf Gencon Slugfest 2007 ( 400 pts) 3-0 Knights of Weston x4, Alastair Lonewolf National Heroscape Day - AZ '07 (400 pts Duel in the Desert) 6-0 Marro Stingers x6, Deathreavers Lonewolf New Years Day Tournament AZ '08 (400 pts) 3-0 4th Mass x2, Romans x3, Marcus Gallus, Isamu Lonewolf Win-A-Wave Tournament '07 (400 pts) 3-0 Blastatrons x2, Gladiatrons x2, Kaemon Awa Rÿchean Big'Ole Monster Gencon '07 (400 pts) 5-0 Q9, Nilfheim, Isamu, Marcu Rÿchean Dallas Team Feb '07 (550 pts 2 player teams) 5-0 Major Q9, Krav Maga Agents (funrun), Nakita Agents, Laglor, Deathreavers (Rÿchean) Rÿchean Dallas Team Feb '08 (600 pts 2 player teams) 4-0 Krav, Marro Stingers x3 (funrun), Nilfheim, Deathreavers x2, Marro Warriors (Rÿchean) Gamjuven Western PA Tournament '07 (450 pts) 4-1 Major Q9, Raelin (RotV), Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers x2 http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ead.php?t=9262 Gamjuven 2nd Western PA '07 (500 pts) 4-1 Cyprien Esenwein, Sonya Esenwein, Krug, Arrow Gruts x3, Swog Rider x2, Isamu http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=10367 Gamjuven 4th Western PA '08 (500 pts) 5-0 Marro Stingers x5, Deathreavers x2, Airborne Elite, Isamu http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=16069 ollie Roll Shields or Die October 2007 (500 pts, Marvel allowed, no glyphs) 4-0 Braxas, Venom, Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=12955 ollie UConn Rise of the Husky Tournament, CT, March '08 (450pts, Marvel allowed, no glyphs) 4-1 Venom, Stingers x3, Airborne Elite, Isamu Elstree [i]NHSD Emerald City Heroscapers Tournament[/i (500 pts) 4-0-1 Marro Stingers x4, minions of Utgar x2, Marcu, Isamu Kahrma Kansas City Heroscapers Nov 4th '07 (410 pts) 5-1 Q9, Marro Stingers x3, Marro Warriors Kahrma KC Hextreme Mayhem Jan 12th '07 (500 pts) 5-0 Q9, Krav Maga Agents, 4th Mass x3, Isamu UranusPChicago 1st DFW Tournament (400 pts only RotV and Wave 1) 5-0 Marcus Decimus Gallus, Roman Legionnaires x2, Ne-Gok-Sa, Izumi Samurai, Marro Warriors UranusPChicago 2nd DFW Tournament (400 pts) 6-0 Marcus Decimus Gallus, Roman Legionnaires x2, 4th Mass x2, Me-Burq-Sa Revdyer 3rd DFW (singles) Oct '07 (500 pts) 5-0 4th Mass x4, Sentinels of Jandar x2 Sweetcurse Houston '07 (400 pts) 4-0 Raelin, Elite Onyx Vipers, Izumi, Marro Warriors, Krav Maga Agents Alastair MacDirk Norcal Jan 20th '07 (450 pts) 5-1 Major Q9, Deathreavers x3, Raelin, 4th mass http://www.heroscapers.com/community...=asc&start=180 arp12 Marlboro vs. The World, VT, March 2008 (500 pts) 4-0 Roman Legionnaires x3, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Ne-Gok-Sa, Me-Burq-Sa, Airborne Elite matrixrenegade Gencon '07 Heat of Battle (400 Pts) 5-0 Knights of Weston x3, Sir Hawthorne, Sir Denrick Cornpuff Emerald City Heroscapers 3/15/08 (500 pts) 4-0 Grimnak, Blade Gruts x2, Nilfheim, Guilty, Raelin Clarrissimus Chicagoland tourney March 1st (500 pts common squads x2 only) 4-1 Alastair MacDirk, MacDirk Warriors x2, Major Q10, Marro Warriors Dennis PA Mitten's Invitational '08 (500 pts melee only) 5-0 Su-Bak-Na, Drones x6, Marcu, Isamu Royaldoy 3rd Western PA Tournament '07 (500 pts) 4-1 Major Q9, Raelin, Nakita Agents, Tagawa Samurai Messenger Canton Ohio NHSD '07 (465 pts no Raelin, Q9) 7-0 4th Mass x5, Sergeant Drake RotV http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=13388 Velenne December '06 DFW Invitational (500 Pts) 3-0 Charos, Braxas, Deathreavers x2 Phloid Outpost 2K Open, MN (550 pts) 5-0 Major Q9, Raelin, Laglor, Krav Maga Agents, 2x Deathreavers MattserTruckRally GenCon '07 Championship (500 pts) 7-1 Major Q9, Raelin, Laglor, Krav Maga Agents, Marcu Esenwein, Isamu Now, that's a lot of pretty colors, but they're making me sad. Seriously though, I see some patterns. Shark units are very scarce, but they seem to show up more often when the rules are slightly different. Ollie's Marvel victories show that having a good, hard-hitting answer to Marvel units (if they are available) is probably important. Clarissimus' victory with an extremely offensive army came at place where no more than 2 of any commons were allowed. Messenger's offensive army won when starting zones were expanded to 32 hexes. Othwerwise, having a defensive, or non-order marker-intensive unit seems to pay off. Even in the active parts of armies, Menacers like Q9, Krav, and Marro Stingers are often preferred, and the ages of massive common squad scape with 4+ attacks seems to be dwindling, although the 4th are still going strong. I will admit that this is certainly open to debate. By definition, most Menacers are units that are on spider_poison's A list, so this might not come as a surprise to many that they keep winning tournaments. But the main reason that I put them in there is that they are balanced offensively and defensively. The second is that they have fewer attacks per activation than their bread and butter counterparts. Furthermore, just because a unit is a cheerleader, that doesn't make it defensive. Marcus and Gilbert are both Cheerleaders and thus kind of good without stepping into the fray, but their bonuses are primarily offensive in nature. Swogs and Grimnak do a little bit of everything. |
#2
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Nice article
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This thread is very confusing to me. I see how you are trying to make the point that having a defensively based army can win tournaments just as well as those who have a full-out offensively based army.
However, I don't understand why you have some units as one color in some armies, and another color in others. For example, I have seen 4th mass as Menacers in some, while being BB in another, and Romans as BB or Defenders. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, and I am wondering what is the reasoning for this. Overall, I find this thread to be a valuable source of information. PS. Why is (Order Markers 5) at the end of the Thread Title? Even though you were trying to show how defenders can come in handy at times, the words "order marker" were only referred to about 2 times throughout your entire post, and it didn't seem like it was about how to use defensive units with your order markers. |
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Interesting, but I think it shows the tendancy of better players to choose consistency over potential at least as much as it shows the relative value of shark units in tournament environments.
Hey, Jexik, did you mean to post this in the strategy section? I can move it if you like. ~Aldin, defensively He either fears his fate too much or his desserts are small That dares not put it to the touch to gain or lose it all ~James Graham |
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Although I don't always comment, I do read all your order marker threads with interest. And I think this one could yield even more info you were somehow able to confirm just how the players used their pieces.
For example, some people use Me-Burq-Sa as a shark with Romans instead of as cleanup. How did spider_poison use him in the Mindshackle Tournament of GenCon '06? What about Kaemon Awa? Was he cleanup for Lonewolf in his Win-a-Wave '07 victory or menacer? Did these roles change from match to match depending on army matchups? Did Kaemon work better in one role than in another? Lots of work for you, of course and I don't expect you to interview everybody on this list. But it is worth considering. I never lay awake at night wondering how to design an army that will help me win 40% of my games. -- Jexik Do NOT click this link. |
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Re: Defense Wins Championships (Order Markers 5)
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I think it all comes down to "less places to put order markers = good" and "units that can provide benefits without order markers = good." As Jexik's been saying in all of these articles, being able to keep your markers on units that do damage while the rest of your army is still providing a benefit to you is key. Like battle reports? Click Tourney Reports (New 10/21/2012 - Cutters / Brutes!) KC's Maps Click KC's Customs Scaper of the Week #57 |
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Alright, I fixed it, KC. I wasn't trying to discredit him. Going 7-0 is no small feat.
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Like battle reports? Click Tourney Reports (New 10/21/2012 - Cutters / Brutes!) KC's Maps Click KC's Customs Scaper of the Week #57 |
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Roll Shields or Die October 2007: Braxas, Venom, Krav Maga Agents, Deathreavers . The Krav Maga Agents were used as a decoy, so I'm not sure quite how to categorise them. The plan was to send out the rats followed by the KMA, setting up to look like I was sticking to that plan for a while, and then suddenly pile order markers on Braxas for as long as she looks like holding up. The hope was that using the X on the KMA, along with their previous aggression, would give Braxas longer to do her stuff. In each of the four games, Braxas took out over 250pts---often much more---and Venom was rarely called upon to do anything significant. UConn Rise of the Husky Tournament, CT, March '08: Venom, Stingers x3, Airborne Elite, Isamu. My plan at least was to follow your colors. I think that when Marvel is allowed, all-out attack becomes a more viable strategy. The stingers flopped though, rarely seeming to pull their weight. Venom carried the army on more than one occasion, and was sturdy enough to be considered a menacer. I used him as such more and more as the tournament progressed. Whether this was due to his stats, or to the dice rolls on the day, I couldn't say. |
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Alright, I took some of these suggestions into account. I completely changed up the Mindshackle tournament results from spider's entry. Because killing NGS was the goal of the tournament, I'm assuming that he wasn't sent into the fray, so he's cleanup. Since MBS is pretty good at killing NGS, I made him a shark.*
I took ollie's report too, thanks for the info! I left the Krav as menacers, largely because I still think that's the best category. Part of the idea behind that category is that it often engenders more fear and ire from your opponents than they should, even though they aren't quite as offensive as other units. Although defenders are usually thought of as the decoys, they tend to try to engage their foes. *Here comes a tangent. For better or worse, the cleanup and shark categories often seem completely indistinguishable when it comes to heroes that bond. Almost any hero with just one or two attacks can be cleanup. I've even seen Marcus Decimus Gallus kill about his point total against scattered squad figures at the end of a game. Point cost is the only real reason that heroes like Venoc Warlord, Su-Bak-Na, and Alastair MacDirk are sharks and Me-Burq-Sa is cleanup. The idea is that the more expensive heroes will be activated sooner along with their squads in the hope of killing more units, and they lend a more offensive character to the squads they bond with. Me-Burq-Sa is cheaper, and a little less dangerous than the above. In the absence of a squad to bond with, most heroes become cleanup figures, or cheerleaders if they still have benefits or auras to offer. Nilfheim is a figure that I am never sure how to classify, even though I play him at least as much as any other hero. I originally had him listed as a shark, and later changed him to a menacer. His special attack makes him one of the most potent offensive units in the game, and he's easier for squads to take out than Major Q9, but I still feel that he seems a little harder to bring down than Braxas. In an army with enough squads and high enough points, he can very capably take over the cleanup role. |
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