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  #1  
Old January 23rd, 2008, 02:36 AM
redturtle redturtle is offline
 
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For tournaments - Rules Enforcement Level

Been looking around the heroscapers site now for a couple of weeks after getting back into HS recently and I am interested in holding a local tournament.

I cant seem to find any discussion regarding (a MtG term) called Rules Enforcement Level.

Let me explain and hopefully we can get some consensus and discussion about it.
(If this has already occured please point me in the right direction.)

What is Rules Enforcement Level?

It is a code that can be used to help describe the level of competitiveness of a tournament, or the level that the judges will enforce the rules, or how seriously your opponents will be playing and how seriously they will expect you to play.

As an example let me set out 3 levels of rules enforcement and what they might mean and where they might apply.

Heroscapers Rules Enforcement Level - Draft 1

Level 1 - Basic
This might be adopted by a local game store or a group of friends that are running some kind of competitive format.

Guidelines
- you may touch other players figures.
- you can move figures, let go of them, think a bit, move another member of the same squad, say oops and then take the previously moved figure back. i.e. allow people to try multiple figure movement
- if you foget to move a figure, or take an action then you can back track to a point and take that part of your turn. ( I know this maybe against the rules, hence some discussion)

This rules level is intended to encourage a start in the tournament scene with fun, coaching and support. Designed primarily at beginners and those interested in playing competitively.


Level 2 - Intermediate
This level might be adopted by the local games group or store that wants to offer some prizes and hence requires some level or seriousness.

Guidelines
- touching the other persons figures is not a penalty but is highly discouraged
- a figure may be let go of, but if you start to move another figure the previously moved figure must stay where you left it and may not be taken back
- no proxies are allowed
- (I have seen a great post on the rolling of dice, which may go in here, but i cant find it, if someone can point it out that would be great)
- stinger denial is not valid and aganst the general intentions of this REL



Level 3 - Advanced
This level might be adopted by conventions, state, national and international championships.

Guidelines
- There is a 3 warning system in place if you are given 3 warnings in a match you will get an automatic loss.
- you will be given a warning for touching another players figure
- once a figure is moved and then let go, it may not be moved again
- you may adjust the position of the figure on the hex at any time.
- a piece of string may be used to determine any difficulties or disagreements with line of sight
- no proxies
- any disruptive behavious or stalling will be given a warning
- the judges decision will be final
- judges and tournament organisers are not permitted to play in this level, only judge and organise (that does not include volunteer support)
- if you can get stinger denial to work, go for it, but be warned about timewasting to do so

What this hopes to do is bring a standard set of rules that can be easily adopted internationally that all players are able to refer to before the tournament and thus know in advance what type of tournement environment that are playing in.

All tournament REL's are still able to be played by anyone. Setting a REL level is not a way of excluding public participation. (Another method will need to be used for that purpose, such as private invitation)

I am happy to keep editing this post as we get some discussion and create a working REL. (or if an admin wants to take over that if fine as well)


Edit
From the responses below it seems there may need to be some general play guidlines as well.

Rather than try to do that all in one post we should start a new thread for competitive play guidelines.

So at this point I will stick to the topic of creating the REL.
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  #2  
Old January 23rd, 2008, 06:53 PM
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There has been some discussion along these lines just not much interest. I applaud you for your initiative and encourage you to continue defining the rules as with the current shift on HS management I believe that tournament play is in the future for HS.

Fot the time being almost everyone plays at level 1, possibly 2. Search for "Stinger Denial" for more discussion on which types of playing people prefer. It's all gentlemenly fun playing right now. True "tournament" rules (level 3) are often discouraged by the old guard, but please don't let that stop you as a surge in tournament caliber competitive play would definately boost the game's fan base.
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 06:57 PM
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The two tournaments that I have been to have been somewhere between 1&2 in terms of level of rules-sticklerity. In fact, we didn't even place our units card by card, and instead just put our armies down as we pleased before told to begin. The first tournament I went to, I didn't care, because I only had 6x 4th Mass covering all of my available hexes.

Stinger Denial is certainly a great read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old January 24th, 2008, 07:41 PM
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Ok the rules enforcement level is one of the ways that I can see to deal with the whole stonger denial debate.

It gives everyone prior knowledge before entering a tournament what level / style of play they might expect.

I would say at level 2, it is about being a little more relaxed about the rules and letting the have fun factor hold the day.

At level 3, it is about having your name in lights as the champion. When you walk into a level 3 tournament you can expect the players of that tournament to experience fun by playing at the highest level.

From reading the stinger denial thread there seems to be a perception that having fun and being competitive are mutually exclusive.

I would like to state that being highly competitive is fun for me. Does that mean I will use 'gamey' tactics, like stinger denial. No probably not, but I am definitely going to try to position sculpts for los obstruction. Which tells me that we all draw the line at a slightly different place.

What that means it is not about being right or wrong, but about communicating the expectations before we begin so that everyone is on the same page.

I advocate for developing some form of pre-tournament stardard of rules enforcement.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 10:19 PM
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If I am playing in the "Advanced" tourney there better be a ton of money on the line for the winner.


This game is fun to play and can be competitive...when it gets to the point where fists are going to fly because you touched someone elses figure then I would just assume flip every table in the room over and call it a day.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 10:45 PM
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Funny, I look at it the other way around. If there's anything on the line, I would want it understood that my opponent and I are not to touch one another's figures. I don't understand why you would want a tournament rules enforcement level where nudging the opponent's figure is OK.

Most people seem to be reacting to the stinger denial concept by putting themselves in the shoes of the denied player-- "I hate this tactic, it sucks that I can't move where I want to move. I want the tournament organizer to ban this." For whatever reason, I put myself in the shoes of the stinger player. "The rules say not to move my figure out of the way, so don't you do it!"

I haven't used denial, but I certainly don't see it as something that's detrimental to the fun of the game. At least not any more than Grimnak's tail.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 11:58 PM
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I donít see this as a ď tournament level ď I think it has more to do with the participates ( participate level). If you are holding an ď Open ď tournament you will have all types of people and skill levels. I also believe people of all skill levels can get together and have a good time playing HS. Some know the rules better than others, some are more careful than others, but most everyone if abide by the rules if they know them. My point is you canít dictate a tournament level unless you have control over the entrants. If you try to enforce a level 3 in an Open tournament I assume you will lose the Fun Factor and why a lot of people came to the tournament in the first place. I may be all wrong but I don't see it.


As an example - I know the rules but Jomi will tell I move his figures all the time when I try placing mine on hex that may be near his figure. It was not my intent to disturb his figure nor do I realize I am doing it ( if I really am ). If I do I assume it is just my poor eyesight and I donít realize I am doing it. Iím sure Iíve been guilty of moving one figure and then moving it back in favor of another, and I know my opponent as done this also and it really is no big deal to me.

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Old January 25th, 2008, 12:03 AM
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Yeah but considering Jormi is your own son, I'd imagine that he looks the other way.

He was a stickler with me, dangit, when we played at TTO!! I was a bit surprised but happy to oblige a very strict (and accurate) interpretation of the rules). That's one of several things I like about Jormi, actually.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang
Yeah but considering Jormi is your own son, I'd imagine that he looks the other way.

He was a stickler with me, dangit, when we played at TTO!! I was a bit surprised but happy to oblige a very strict (and accurate) interpretation of the rules). That's one of several things I like about Jormi, actually.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 12:11 AM
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This is a good discussion.


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Old January 25th, 2008, 10:59 PM
redturtle redturtle is offline
 
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Some great reply's.

Let me clarify some stuff.

I believe setting Rules Enforcement Level's (REL) are a good idea for a number of reason's.
(to give some background, I own and internet cafe and we have run Magic tournaments every Sunday for the last 3 years with me being the main organiser)
As an organiser of a tournament when I use a REL for the tournament it gives me something to base my judgements and decisions on.

Mostly we play at the lowest REL and everyone knows that. As a store owner that is good cause it gives new players some slack and an opportunity to play the game without fear of getting disqualified by something that they did not know or were unsure of. It also gives me somewhere to go if someone gets upset by the actions of a beginner (not that it has ever happened, but that might be because everyone knows we are at a low REL and doesn't take it too seriously).

We have all touched someone else's figures by mistake or even got excited and intentionally handed them their killed figure. When you are playing at REL 3 that kind of thing really should not occur and everyone knows it. When playing at level 1 you smile and say to your opponent, 'it is better if you let me collect my figure next time ok, good dice roll and well done', and the game goes on.

As a tournament organiser I think setting a REL works and I am going to be using something like that when I run HS tournaments. What I would ideally like is to base those REL's on something that is community created and more standardised, because it will be much better than anything I can come up with on my own.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 11:14 PM
redturtle redturtle is offline
 
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After posting this I realise I can say some more about why REL's work.

People, being people, make mistakes and dont always follow rules. It seems like HS is still new on the tournament scene but I believe this aspect of the game will grow and prizes will increase.

When you set a REL what you are saying is what level of 'mistake' will be tolerated and what the consequences are for making those mistakes.

It also gives a general indication of what standard of opponent you will face. REL 1 will attract more beginners and hence more beginners will play each other, which I think is a good thing.

What a REL cannot do is determine if your opponent will be fun to play. I dont believe any rules or regulations can determine that. That is dependant on so many factors, many of them intangible.

What it can do is say, at level 1, gamey tactics will be strongly discouraged, play for fun and make sure the beginners and new players have a blast. At level 3 you can expect some players to use gamey tactics, if you dont like it don't complain cause you have been warned.

By the way these are examples only. We have an opportunity to set the standards and determine what type of tactics are accepted at what type of tournaments. I say lets create it together.
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