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  #481  
Old November 29th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Neurosion Neurosion is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

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Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
Every one requires faith, but Christianity only requires faith. Most others also require good works and whatnot. It's impossible according to the Christian faith.
Which drives straight to GB's original point. You can be a really awful person and still go to Heaven as long as you've got faith. As I understand it, this is true even if you only find faith on your death bed.
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  #482  
Old November 29th, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Dysole Dysole is offline
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Ah But That's The Question...

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Originally Posted by Neurosion View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
Every one requires faith, but Christianity only requires faith. Most others also require good works and whatnot. It's impossible according to the Christian faith.
Which drives straight to GB's original point. You can be a really awful person and still go to Heaven as long as you've got faith. As I understand it, this is true even if you only find faith on your death bed.
What is faith? I actually had a little back and forth with Ranior on what was faith. It turned out the two of us were using faith to mean two completely different things. So when Christianity says it requires only faith what does that mean? And whether that "gets you into heaven" (which I'm not so sure is an accurate way of describing things then again I have no clue exactly how the afterlife goes down so again I could be wrong here) or not? That's why I keep going back to this point.

When all is said and done God will examine the hearts of people and his decisions will be made. Nobody will be able to call foul on this decision. That's all I can really say with certainty.

I do like how one person phrased it so I'll quote him.

"So do all non-Christians go to hell? I can say with certainty that all without Christ are damned but not that all without explicit faith in Christ are damned. I can say with certainty that all outside the faith are in danger and only those with an explicit faith are assured of salvation (my own editorial note here is that I'm not convinced that simply saying "I believe in Jesus is necessarily enough but that it's a heart thing as I said above). But neither do I have certainty that they are lost. I know of some cases (Old Testament believers, children, mentally disabled people) where this is not true, and so I must in every instance leave it up to God to do what is just and right."

Anyways, that's what I've got for now.

~Dysole, who really doesn't like using hell as a scare tactic into believing into today's society and culture
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  #483  
Old November 29th, 2012, 12:47 PM
Griffin Griffin is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Dysole, while I may agree with you on some things, the only thing any of us can be certain of is complete uncertainty. Seriously, think about it. Without uncertainty, faith could not exist.
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  #484  
Old November 29th, 2012, 12:50 PM
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quozl quozl is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurosion View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
IF GOD is real, then surely the ones who try to do right by him are more likely to succeed than those that ignore his existence entirely. For example, Christ requires belief in him as the son of GOD to please GOD.
This is where evangelical Christianity lost me. In High School I was very active in a youth ministry until the ministry leader assured me, against all objections, that anyone who does not know Christ was bound for Hell, regardless of their morality. This included people who, due to where they lived and who they knew, might never be exposed to Christianity. He actually argued that such people, if they deserved Heaven, would somehow find a way to spontaneously come to Christ.
Romans 1:20 states:

Quote:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

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  #485  
Old November 29th, 2012, 01:04 PM
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Dysole Dysole is offline
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Actually...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
Dysole, while I may agree with you on some things, the only thing any of us can be certain of is complete uncertainty. Seriously, think about it. Without uncertainty, faith could not exist.
I think I agree with you on this more than I may have shown. I have definitely said before that faith is not certainty (maybe not in this thread but definitely before). There's a reason I keep poking and prodding at things.

~Dysole, who knows of many instances where people have meant the same thing and called it different things
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  #486  
Old November 29th, 2012, 01:45 PM
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Grungebob Grungebob is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

So now we should call Christians "The Uncertain"?


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  #487  
Old November 29th, 2012, 05:56 PM
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Ranior Ranior is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Are you trying to state that you believe that God will spontaneously come to individuals, and that they shall accept him as their saivor?

I mean let us suppose a small tribe in the middle of the amazon, who has not interacted with the outside world, and have no concept of any of our society.

Are you trying to argue that these individuals will come to know the Christian God and Jesus Christ spontaneously and then can choose to accept him as their creator and savior?






As for the idea that faith in Jesus/God alone shall send you into heaven just so long as you believe...does this mean that it is acceptable to commit suicide to take myself into God's kingdom faster? I mean if I believe in Christ, and he promises me eternal bliss, why should I spend time down on Earth toiling and suffering?

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  #488  
Old November 29th, 2012, 06:21 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Just for fun...

Hell has apparently frozen over, as Pat Robertson now accepts that the Earth is far older than 6000 years old (kinda a duh, since every shred of evidence supports this as well)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2207275.html

Of course, this isn't surprising since they found ice on Mercury...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/me...f20121129.html

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
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  #489  
Old November 29th, 2012, 06:23 PM
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quozl quozl is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Thomas Mails, a Christian who spent a lot of time with the Native Americans of the Great Plains, used that verse to show why he believed that the tribes who worshiped the Great Creator were actually worshiping the Christian God as best they knew. There's nothing spontaneous about it. Paul was saying that God is evident in his creation and all can choose to follow God or not.

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  #490  
Old November 29th, 2012, 06:35 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

@ Rainor

Good luck on fighting the good fight, but don't expect any results if history is any guide...

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...at#post1297277

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
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  #491  
Old November 29th, 2012, 06:58 PM
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Ranior Ranior is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Thomas Mails, a Christian who spent a lot of time with the Native Americans of the Great Plains, used that verse to show why he believed that the tribes who worshiped the Great Creator were actually worshiping the Christian God as best they knew. There's nothing spontaneous about it. Paul was saying that God is evident in his creation and all can choose to follow God or not.
Alright.

So if tribes or other individuals are worshiping some form of deity, we'll just take it to mean that they are worshiping our God?

If we do that, fine. I think it's a bit of a cop out to the whole thing though to say that as long as they are worshiping some form of creator we will call it God and things are okay. I think it is disingenuous to their culture, history, and religion to claim their acts are really for our God. I think it is also extremely arrogant to do so.

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  #492  
Old November 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM
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Swamper Swamper is offline
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Re: Politics, Religion, and Morality

At least the Indians had the common sense to realize that all of this couldn't just happen by chance. They realized that there had to be a greater power than ourselves, a creator that is far above us and our level of understanding. That's more than I can say for a lot of people today.

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Garden of Horror...
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