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  #7117  
Old January 27th, 2021, 11:14 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

What do you mean by them (according to some) “stepping outside their power bracket”?

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  #7118  
Old January 27th, 2021, 11:38 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
What do you mean by them (according to some) “stepping outside their power bracket”?
No one has noted them to be overly strong, you arent getting more than what you pay for with a figure that costs 25 points a piece. When I say power bracket, I mean that they are comparable by price to other units for what you get. They definitely wont be an A ranked figure.
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  #7119  
Old January 27th, 2021, 12:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Wulfing Hunters is a good design. There's long been a desire to give Hunters some synergy, and I like the "hunt" feeling captured here to do that. Silent Stalkers is interesting too, as they not only have to avoid engagements but avoid each other and other friendlies to get the benefit, which plays as an advantage for a 2-man squad. You may get some pushback for putting them on Grut, which is not usually treated as a fantasy unit dumping ground, but I'm fine with it.

to review Wulfing Hunters
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  #7120  
Old January 27th, 2021, 12:22 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Some really interesting units to pair them with, they look like fun. Good luck!
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  #7121  
Old January 27th, 2021, 02:32 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

This is a really neat design. Good luck!

Edit: Not that my opinion really matters, but I skimmed through and didn’t see any tests with both Arktos and Vark Greyspears. That’s already a very strong combo, and I’d make sure to test that with the Hunters added in.

Edit 2: And, even more importantly, make sure to test with Dund. Dund bonding is legitimately scary.

Edit 3: And in case it’s not clear, I’m not advocating for judges to downvote here, as I really do like the design. These are just the two builds to look out for in testing imo.

Last edited by OEAO; January 27th, 2021 at 03:30 PM.
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  #7122  
Old January 27th, 2021, 03:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Hunter synergy has long been something that I've wanted to see in some form or another, and I think that this design seems promising in how it can make that feasible (and the interplay between their powers feels unique and fun to play around with).

The unengaged requirement makes Himmelskralle a much bigger risk and places more of an emphasis on ranged Hunters, like Arktos or the Master of the Hunt, which I quite like. Like OEAO said, bonding with DŁnd has the potential to get very frustrating against the right armies (and Arktos and Van Nessing are already good figures), but I'm willing to see how it pans out in testing.

to review the Wulfing Hunters.
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  #7123  
Old January 27th, 2021, 03:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

For sure, thanks for the advice from everyone!

@OEAO. I've done Dund testing, it doesnt really help him much. Still a novelty synergy at best where you would be better served by Agent Skahen and then an OM on Dund to garuntee you get the activation, instead of relying on Howl in his best matchups, which would be messed commons. The Wulfing do pretty poor in most scenarios anyways against masses melee, Dund is Dund and I'd assert that the bonding here is both conditional, preventable... and honestly less impactful than the crypt guardian bonding with Sudema.

I'm not sure what Army build you would be suggesting eith the grey spears that would be more potent than Marro Warriors. Grey Spears are definitely tough, but there is no direct synergy between these squads. If I'm reading them correctly they also function best when you can play them with other Varks, if you're suggesting the Wulfing as Filler for their Army I think it reduced the effectiveness of the Vaks significantly. If you're suggesting the grey spears as clean up once Arktos and the Wulfing have been defeated, I'd rather have Marro Warriors in their spot every time.

What Army build are you thinking about exactly? Seems to be 2 squads that could conditionally use the same hero but trip over eachother in how they want to play.
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  #7124  
Old January 27th, 2021, 03:54 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
For sure, thanks for the advice. I've done Dund testing, it doesnt really help him much. Still a novelty synergy at best where you would be better served by Agent Skahen and then an OM on Dund to garuntee you get the activation, instead of relying on Howl in his best matchups, which would be messed commons. The Wulfing do pretty poor in most scenarios anyways against masses melee, Dund is Dund and I'd assert that the bonding here is both conditional, preventable... and honestly less impactful than the crypt guardian bonding with Sudema.

I'm not sure what Army build you would be suggesting eith the grey spears that would be more potent than Marro Warriors. Grey Spears are definitely tough, but there is no direct synergy between these squads. If I'm reading them correctly they also function best when you can play them with other Varks, if you're suggesting the Wulfing as Filler for their Army I think it reduced the effectiveness of the Vaks significantly. If you're suggesting the grey spears as clean up once Arktos and the Wulfing have been defeated, I'd rather have Marro Warriors in their spot every time.

What Army build are you thinking about exactly? Seems to be 2 squads that could conditionally use the same hero but trip over eachother in how they want to play.
The point with Dund is that you're not wasting a full turn on him. You can get a few attacks, then try to kill their whole round (which is a much more potent ability than Sudema's into massed commons, which are generally the strongest armies anyways). Following that, you can then switch to perhaps Arktos bonding or whatever. Agent Skahen doesn't help Dund at all (or, more accurately, Dund actively hurts any Skahen build by wasting a bunch of points for no real benefit).

Here, I see there being a real benefit to using Dund. 30% chance to ruin your opponent's round could be very problematic, and certainly helps the bonding melee matchup. Now, as you said, the bonding is preventable. Again, I'm not saying Dund is definitely a problem. I would bet that a Dund build is usually better than a Himmel build, but I also don't think Himmel is all that good, so I may be in the minority there.

For Greyspears, I would never run any other Varks with them in a competitive game; just them and Arktos is enough. Off the top of my head, I'd try something like:

Greyspears 110
Arktos 95
Marro Warriors 50
3x Wulfing 150
2x Rats 80
Isamu 10

At 500. Again, this is a very rough first idea, but why choose between MWs and Greyspears? Greyspears/Arktos behind Rats really helps your bad bonding melee matchups (against the bonding melee that actually matters, aka not Heavies... stupid Cathar...), and also really help against Braxas, TKN, and Black Wyrms (some other foreseeable problems). Basically, I think Greyspears really smooth your matchups.

Also, I'll step out after this. I don't mean to derail the thread.
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  #7125  
Old January 27th, 2021, 04:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Also, I'll step out after this. I don't mean to derail the thread.
You analysis is welcome. It helps us Judges to know what people think may be problematic matchups. Testing for that stuff is our job, but we're not perfect and won't think of everything.
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  #7126  
Old January 27th, 2021, 04:48 PM
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Playtesting

I actually ran a

Wulf x5
Raelin
Arktos
MW
Marcu build

and SR played Knights (this is what I thought was the strongest build and when I playtest I playtest to break units and this felt like one of the easiest ways to do it). It was somewhat close by the end but a lot of that closeness was mostly due to MWs with Arktos being able to do a lot and the Wulfs themselves were just okay.

Having only 6 Wulf in the build feels a bit tricksy to me to leverage well even with Rats and Greyspears helping out (unless you're planning on basically just using them as a screen for the Greyspears and MW in which case I'm not sure they're better than say Marro Dividers in that role). Having played them they definitely die a lot quicker than you think they will and that was even with having Raelin.

My biggest thought as I thought about bonding with DŁnd is the thing that always holds DŁnd back is that CG is before moving. Given that it's a 5 space range and the Wulf are melee it would require a decent bit of setup and then the opponent can still work on trying to mitigate that. Definitely something to keep an eye on, but I think there's enough keeping it in check. I do agree that most times I'd rather DŁnd than Himmel and really only want Himmel if I'm facing something with a lot of low defense.

~Dysole, offering her competitive thoughts
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  #7127  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 09:42 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I don't usually post in customs threads, however I did play a testing game with Shiftrex about a week ago and promised that I would give him some formal feedback/suggestions on the forums, so...

Is anyone else concerned that for 50 points these guys might be too weak? They don't really do well against any of the top tier armies besides 4th Mass, and 50 points for a 2 man, 3/3 squad that can usually (but not always) get 3 or 4 activations per turn seems a bit expensive. Their Silent Stalker ability seems good on paper, but it makes positioning these figures much more difficult if you want to take advantage of it, and it doesn't actually help that much against ranged figures if the ranged army is running a screen. I'm by no means an expert on figure testing or balance so feel free to ignore this if you want, but I would suggest reducing the Wulfing Hunters' cost from 50 to 45 points per squad. Although 5 points doesn't sound like much, the extra 25-30 points you save (assuming you're running 5-6 squads) when building your army does expand your options slightly, making the Wulfing Hunters builds that little bit more viable without breaking them.

My second and much more minor suggestion is to change the Wulfing Hunters' general from Ullar to Aquilla. I'm suggesting this not because it would make the Wulfing Hunters better in a standard Cheese or Bring 2 format, but because it would make these guys a really interesting pick in General Wars. (Particularly if the rule prohibiting more than 200 points of any 1 common squad is being played). Arktos, Himmelskralle and Van Nessing are all good bonding options that are all aligned with Aquilla, and I feel that the Arktos synergy in particular could make for some really cool builds in combination with the Varkaanan squads. I think flavour-wise Aquilla fits these guys pretty well too, although I can definitely see why Ullar was chosen as their general initially too.

So, to summarise, a drop to 45 points will give Wulfing Hunters builds a little bit more flexibility/options when constructing the army, thus making them a tiny bit more viable, and changing the general from Ullar to Aquilla will make these guys an actual viable option in General Wars.

If anyone has any feedback regarding these proposed changes, I'd love to hear it. I'm by no means an expert.
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  #7128  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 02:44 PM
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Re: Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I actually ran a

Wulf x5
Raelin
Arktos
MW
Marcu build

and SR played Knights (this is what I thought was the strongest build and when I playtest I playtest to break units and this felt like one of the easiest ways to do it). It was somewhat close by the end but a lot of that closeness was mostly due to MWs with Arktos being able to do a lot and the Wulfs themselves were just okay.
Forgot to respond before, but I really don't think Raelin is worth it with them. She doesn't help your terrible auto-kill matchups (Braxas, BWs, Grim, Torky, Hounds, Fire Storm, etc). I'd much rather put the 80 into something else.
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