The Book of Thor (Avengers)

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

The one thing that I feel I would change is the attack bonus from wielding the hammer. I'd go base attack 7 with +1 from the hammer instead of 6+2. As +2 I'm drafting a whole team full of Valiant figures just so I can keep passing around the glyph as the game unfolds.

Valid points. I considered at one point just having it change attack value to 8, but that would be insanely busted now that we have White Canary. She might be a problem anyways, +2 attack is pretty significant to a Deadly Strike effect.

What if it adds an auto-skull? Kind of a middle ground between 1 and 2, and doesn't cause problems with WC.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm not following the theme of Avenging Asgardian at all. Thematically why is he converting blanks to skulls? What does that have to do with being an Avenger, Asgardian or, most of all (since you called it Avenging Asgardian and not Asgardian Avenger and because past versions had that effect of responding to enemy attacks/friendly destruction) it doesn't feel "vengeful" at all now. So I'm not really feeling this version of Avenging Asgardian.

I like the hammer but it feels a bit muddled. +1 or +2 attack is fine by me and fine letting playtesting suss that out. Maybe something about how he can't drop the hammer in his hammer power so that he can't hand it off? Though right now anyone can throw it on any space without having a target, so maybe there's no fixing that.

I will say I'm not super keen on the throw being part of the hammer power. Does Cap throw it? Is it really thematic for anyone but him to throw it?

My suggestion would be to move the hammer throw out of the glyph to the hammer power and make Avenging Asgardian more reactive (maybe he can use Thunder Storm when he or a figure near him takes a wound?)

Cap definitely throws it in Endgame (it's how the reveal of him using it plays out) and I do feel like that's what most people will want to emulate in gameplay, vs. Fear Itself or whatever.

I'd be fine changing the name on the first power to Asgardian Avenger or what have you if that would make more sense to people. I think the problem we're running into here is text length though. Moving the hammer throw aspect onto Thor's card just makes things overly wordy (IMO) and I think it also makes his card too long. I like the effect this version of he first power provides, but if we wanted to give it more of a 'avenging' feel, I'd probably just nix that effect and put the hammer throw bit there instead, kind of like what the original version of the design was doing;

AVENGING ASGARDIAN
At the start of the game, you may choose 1 other Unique Hero you control and place a white Avenger Marker on its card. After an opponent's figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Thor attacks a figure you control that is Asgardian or has an Avenger Marker on its card, you may place the Glyph of Mjolnir from this card onto the space the attacking figure occupies, then roll an unblockable attack die against it.

Other option would be to move either the 'hammer recall' or 'lightning strike' aspects onto the Glyph, and then work the throwing bit into Hammer of Thor, but those didn't feel quite right when I tried to write them out.

[Arkham]

Cap also used the lightning with it as well, fwiw. Agreed with Bats on the blanks aspect not really fitting here. I like the rest of what you have for the card though. Throwing it, hitting people along its path, shocking people around him, pinning people, all good stuff.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I was thinking of Cap using the lightning in the movie. But it's understandable if we want to make the thunder part a God of Thunder exclusive ability.

I like that version of the Avenging power in your last post, Nobody.

[Yodaking]

I don't recall that scene, but I only watched that movie the one time. If that really happened, then I feel like it was an oversight on their part and put in by an over zealous employee who doesn't actually understand the source material. In Thor: Ragnarok they pretty clearly lay out that Thor is the God of Thunder, not the God of Hammers. The Lightening is something he generates himself and uses after the hammer has been destroyed. As such any lightening themed powers should be on his card and not the hammer's card, as he should be able to still throw lightening around even without his hammer in hand.


I also like that last take on the Avenging power.

[Arkham]

It was neat though. Just watched it a couple days ago for the first time since the theatre.


That Avenging power works for me.

[MrNobody]

AVENGING ASGARDIAN
At the start of the game, you may choose 1 other Unique Hero you control and place a white Avenger Marker on its card. After an opponent's figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Thor attacks a figure you control within clear sight of Thor that is either Asgardian or has an Avenger Marker on its card, you may place the Glyph of Mjolnir from this card onto the space the attacking figure occupies, then roll an unblockable attack die against it.

HAMMER OF THOR
At the start of the game, place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card. Thor cannot lose this Glyph by receiving wounds unless he is destroyed. Before attacking with Thor, if the Glyph of Mjolnir is on the battlefield, but not on this card or the card of an opponent’s figure, choose the space the Glyph of Mjolnir occupies, and all spaces on a shortest path between the Glyph of Mjolnir and Thor. Roll an unblockable attack die against each Destructible Object occupying those spaces, and up to one other figure that occupies any of the chosen spaces, then place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card.

THUNDER STORM SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 5.
Choose up to 3 figures within 3 clear sight spaces of Thor to be affected by this special attack. Figures occupying water spaces subtract 1 shield from whatever is rolled when defending against this special attack. This special attack may only be used once per round.

SUPER STRENGTH

NAME = GLYPH OF MJOLNIR
SUBTITLE = HAMMER OF THOR

EQUIPMENT GLYPH
Only figures with the Valiant personality and figures named Steve Rogers may equip this Glyph. This figure adds 2 to its Attack number when attacking an adjacent figure. If this figure is Thor Odinson, it gains the Flying special power. While a figure occupies the same space as Mjolnir, if it does not have the Valiant personality or the name Steve Rogers, it cannot roll for leaving engagement attacks and subtracts 1 from its Attack and Defense numbers.

How does this look? Could always go back to unblockables for the Thunder Storm effect, but all 3 of his powers dealing out unblockables felt a bit overkill to me. Having all the unblockable stuff just be focused on the hammer feels cleaner to me.

Slightly modified the wording on the recall effect as well, and also made it so the "pin-down" effect on the hammer subtracts from attack as well as defense.

I guess I'll request a wording check from @Karat and then a card space check from @Arkham , cause I know this is getting close to the text limit. But mechanically, this is feeling very solid!

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I'm digging that direction.

Thematically, and if cuts are needed for space, I wouldn't be against the hammer just hitting all figures on its return path.

[Arkham]

It fits on our minimum font size we've previously gone. I'd cut what you can to bump it back up.

[Yodaking]

Having both a SA and a way to get unblockable certainly give him options vs. many different units. I agree with Bats that just having the Hammer hit every figure when returning to his hand will save some text space and shouldn't be an issue. You don't get to choose the return path so it shouldn't be too difficult for your opponent to avoid lining up multiple figures in a row. If anything make it before moving instead of before attacking and it will be easier to avoid. Still think the weapons should only grant a +1 attack boost so Thor will continue to be the guy you want to have holding onto it.

[Karat]

My only suggestion would be:

HAMMER OF THOR
At the start of the game, place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card. Thor cannot lose this Glyph by receiving wounds unless he is destroyed. Before attacking with Thor, if the Glyph of Mjolnir is on the battlefield, but not on this card or the card of an opponent’s figure, choose the space the Glyph of Mjolnir occupies, and all spaces on a shortest path between the Glyph of Mjolnir and Thor. RPlace the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card and roll an unblockable attack die against each Destructible Object occupying those chosen spaces, and up to one other figure that occupies any of the chosen spaces, then place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card.

Just kinda helps sell that summoning the hammer is causing the wounds to me and flows a little better to my mind.

[MrNobody]

Okay, I think we can cut it down by doing this. Appreciate all the help from you guys getting this design where it needs to be.

AVENGING ASGARDIAN
At the start of the game, you may choose 1 other Unique Hero you control and place a white Avenger Marker on its card. After an opponent's figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Thor attacks a figure you control within clear sight of Thor that is either Asgardian or has an Avenger Marker on its card, you may place the Glyph of Mjolnir from this card onto the space the attacking figure occupies, then roll an unblockable attack die against it.

HAMMER OF THOR
At the start of the game, place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card. Thor cannot lose this Glyph by receiving wounds unless he is destroyed. Before attacking with Thor, if the Glyph of Mjolnir is on the battlefield, but not on this card or the card of an opponent’s figure, you may choose the space the Glyph of Mjolnir occupies, and all spaces on a shortest path between the Glyph of Mjolnir and Thor. Roll an unblockable attack die against each opponent's figure or Destructible Object on the chosen spaces, then place the Glyph of Mjolnir on this card.

THUNDER STORM SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 5.
Choose up to 3 figures within 3 clear sight spaces of Thor to be affected by this special attack. Figures occupying water spaces subtract 1 shield from whatever is rolled when defending against this special attack. This special attack may only be used once per round.

SUPER STRENGTH

I'm getting 450 on the calculator, but wouldn't be surprised at all to see that go up or down.

Hear you on the +1 vs. +2, YK, I think it's something I want to feel out in gameplay though. I definitely think Mjolnir should feel like a really powerful item, especially since only a certain number of figures to wield it. But if +2 is leading to bad gameplay, I'll probably trend down to an auto-skull, and then +1 attack if that's still feeling too strong. Definitely planning a White Canary game and a Superman game.

Also wanting to feel out if the -1 Defense from the 'pin-down' feels clunky with the -1 shield from Thunder Storm. The "no LEAs" effect on the pin-down is what is really bringing a new piece to the factional puzzle IMO, so I'm okay tinkering with the other debuff effects.

COMPETITIVE REVIEW BOARD CHECKLIST

Spoiler Alert!

Efficiency- Check to see if your design is providing armies with turns/moves/etc. to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to keep up with your output.

1. Does your design allow itself or figures to move/attack/take a turn/etc. instead of/in addition to your normal turn for revealing an Order Marker? Is it granting these benefits to too broad a range of units? Does it combine with other powers to create overly long or powerful chains of actions?
No.

2. Does your design allow you to take actions during an opponent's turn? Can it combine with other powers to create tediously long reactions to enemy actions or a restrictive environment?
Yes but also no.

3. Does your design allow you to rearrange your Order Markers or otherwise bypass the costs of Order Marker requirements on the special powers of other figures?
No.

4. Is your design doing anything outside of a player's turn, at the start or end of the round? Is the effect too powerful by itself or when combined with other powers?
No.

5. Does your design have any powers that trigger anytime it moves as opposed to only when it moves normally on its turn? Will it be too efficient when combined with figures that grant extra moves to figures?
No.

6. Is your design adding or subtracting from initiative rolls? Will it pair too easily with other figures that alter initiative or have powers triggering on the results of initiative rolls?
No.


Potency- Check to see if your design is wounding/removing/etc. enemy figures, increasing the chances of other figures in your army doing so, or otherwise directly effecting the number of figures available to players to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to recover from.

1. Does your design have a chance to inflict wounds or destroy figures? Is it getting these chances too frequently or having to high a chance of success? Is the power balanced against expensive targets that can cause a massive swing in the game when destroyed?
Yes. Pretty frequently.

2. Is your design adding to the stats or 20-sided die rolls of other figures in your army? Is it a boosting a broad enough range of units effectively enough to become a 'mandatory' draft or inhibit future design space? Can it be combined with other boosts too easily?
No.

3. Will your design benefit from stat boosts or other enhancement to an overpowering degree? Will it restrict future growth within its faction or point cost by limiting available boosts to others?
No.

4. Does your design take control of enemy figures permanently or temporarily? Is it too difficult to for your opponent to regain control of their figure or recover from the losing the figure? Does the method of taking control expose the enemy figure to the powers of other figures in your army that can easily destroy it?
No.

5. Can your design heal itself or others or revive itself or others? Is it doing so in a way that an opponent cannot hope to overcome in certain scenarios?
No.

6. Does your design place enemy figures on its card or otherwise have an unconventional method of temporarily removing enemy figures from play? Will it guarantee your victory against a single remaining enemy figure?
No.


Chicanery- Check to see if your design is preventing your opponent from taking actions with too much ease or is otherwise causing negative play experience through tactics that make your opponent feel you're 'not playing fair'

1. Does your design restrict the movement of enemy figures, or allow you to move enemy figures? Can it do so in a way that results in an unwinnable scenario for your opponent if they are down to one figure, posses only figures with a range of 1, etc.? Can your design easily combine with other figures to greatly impede enemy figures or otherwise gain an excessive advantage?
No.

2. Does your design effect/change the placement of an enemy's Order Markers, or remove their Order Markers entirely? Can it force Order Markers to go onto cards that have no figures on the battlefield? Can your design easily combine with other figures to completely dictate the placement of an enemy's Order Markers or remove all of their Order Markers?
No.

3. Does your design inhibit your opponent from attacking your figures or make attacking a losing proposition? Are there scenarios or combinations that make your opponent totally unable to harm your figures through attacking?
No.

4. Does your design directly negate the powers of enemy figures or otherwise ignore them in a way that can completely disrupt the opponent's strategy or leave them feeling like they are stuck playing figures without special powers?
No.

5. Does your design become overly powerful in a podded group of figures, or provide significant benefit to your army without leaving your Start Zone?
No.

6. You can attack your own figures in Heroscape, does your design have any powers that will trigger off of doing so or otherwise wounding/destroying your own figures? Is this intentional on your part? Will the design be too efficient or potent when doing so?
No.

CONSISTENCY CHECKLIST (SHORT FORM)

Spoiler Alert!

Consistency Concerns
Name and Identity
Verify character is named in a way that is clear, accurate and feels consistent with the way other characters are named.
Check.

Uniqueness and Type
Verify that the power text reflects the listed uniqueness and type, that the uniqueness fits the character, and that squad size is listed for squads.
Check.

Left Box
If the character's species, class or personality is reused, verify that the character feels thematically consistent with other figures that have that species, class or personality. If they are not reused, verify that there is no pre-existing species, class or personality that would make more sense.
We'll see. If class change vote fails, I'll revert him to being a Champion.

Size and Height
Verify that the listed size and height are accurate. Standing the mini up next to a stack of tiles, and a few other minis of various sizes, is encouraged.
Check.

Super Strength and Flying
Verify that these special powers are present if they make sense, and not if they don't.
Check.

New Powers - Names
Verify that any new powers are not using power names identical to, or very similar to, pre-existing powers. Verify that any new powers are actually new and not old powers with new names.
Check.

New Powers - Effects
Verify that the effect and timing of all new powers is clear. Verify that any logical immunities, benefits, or weaknesses (whether those be necessary for thematic or mechanical reasons) are implemented: consider whether defensive powers that work against normal attacks should also work against special attacks, whether or not a power has an elemental component that some figures should resist, and whether or not unliving figures (such as Undead and Androids) should be affected.
Check.

Reused Powers
Verify that the design is reusing powers in place of creating new ones, where reused powers could implement the same theme and mechanics with no differences or only trivial differences. Verify that any reused powers have the correct text.
Check.

Power Level
Verify that the character's movement, attack, range, and defense (in conjunction with any special powers that enhance those stats) feel consistent with the capabilities of characters with analogous powers and abilities. Verify that the character falls into a similar point range to characters with comparative powers and abilities.
Check.

I propose a VOTE for Initial Playtesting.

[Arch-vile]

yea