The Book of Low-Light

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

He's sure up there. I'd argue he's better than Merlyn and Green Arrow and he's a bunch cheaper than Cable. But I also think he's undercosted as is.

I mean, I'd say he's better than Merlyn just reading the card itself, so definitely should see a price increase.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

I mean, I'd say he's better than Merlyn just reading the card itself, so definitely should see a price increase.

For sure. If we believe the calculator, probably to about 190. I think that matches well with what a terror he was in my tests as well, though that may be his floor, not his ceiling?

[tcglkn]

Can probably do something nasty with Cap, Low Light, GL John and a couple of Tactician figures since Low Light actively wants to not move so you can really take advantage of the podding.

[LordVenoc]

Yeah, I'm just saying that the on paper difference is 1 point of range in stats, but Low-Light has:

A significantly easier way to bump his range.
An auto skull.
A support power for fellow Joes.

I'm not sure the benefit of the Assassin class is comparable to the boon from these and the Joe synergy stuff.

[IAmBatman]

I think you can get comparable stuff as a generalist to what the Assassin class offers (as I think I showed in my testing).

You didn't mention that he has an ability to be immune from range if you put him on a shadow space, which is something you can build around and potentially gives him a lot more staying power than Merlyn as well.

[LordVenoc]

Oh yeah, didn't even read that part of night fighter. Definitely.

[tcglkn]

He actually seems like his worst builds right now are the Joe armies and he’s gonna be better in generalist builds and thus needs to be costed for those armies.

[Yodaking]

I agree he compares well with Merlyn, it's why I wanted to start the testing at 170. I only worry that Merlyn is over priced and he ends up paying the price for that error. Honestly, when is the last time you played a game with Merlyn and did you leave that game thinking he was a must draft unit for his price point going forward? I tried to use Merlyn quite a bit back in the day, his card looks pretty promising on paper, but eventually stopped using him after never seeming to get much out of him. At 160, there are just more attractive options.


*edit*

Oh, and the Joe team isn't anywhere close to done. Part of the reason I wanted to do him early on was so that his card would already be done and ready to be included in testing when some of the other Joes get made. I'm very thankful for Bats building a non-Commando army built around maximizing his skills as the hope is for the Joe team to similarly be able to maximize his skill set when it's all said and done. Would like to see a few more tests like that, where the match-ups and luck aren't such a huge factor. If he ends up higher, it ends up higher.

[IAmBatman]

If I run Assassin builds, Merlyn is a default pick for me. The Assassin faction just isn’t amazing and I slightly prefer Green Arrow (I) in generalist builds.

[IAmBatman]

I should add: if your goal is to make an A-A+ figure out of Low-Light, though, I’d say you are on target. Not sure I agree with that goal for that character, though.

If you want him more in the B range, I’d say bump him to 190 for further testing.

[fret_gurglo]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

It was more irrelevant because shadow tiles didn’t come into play much.

Between it having a limited effect and the entire game on other figures mechanic, I worry you are doubling down on forgettability.

I definitely wouldn’t use markers for it. I definitely would cut it, especially because the theme of how he’s letting other Commandos do it isn’t apparent from anything on the card.

I agree with Bats here. It's a rarely used power that is so situational that it might be forgotten in the midst of the sea of low point figures within the Joe army.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

For Annihilus, Annihilus was a bad match up for Low-Light and Obsidian was a bad match up for Annihilus so it somewhat evened out.

Against Mister Fantastic, rolls were fairly average on both sides. In Sue’s aura, Reed has 9 defense, which is 3 shields on average. Low-Light on 4 attack has 5 skulls on average if he doesn’t move.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I should add: if your goal is to make an A-A+ figure out of Low-Light, though, I’d say you are on target. Not sure I agree with that goal for that character, though.

If you want him more in the B range, I’d say bump him to 190 for further testing.

To achieve the 4 attack on Low-light you had to invest in other figures and that cost is on their cards. It should always be assumed that carry figures are there to carry the guys who can't fly or quickly move into position on their own. Same with figures that give bonuses to Attack. So it's a little unfair to say that Low-light is worth X more because its possible that he can have an attack of 4.

Now that said, Low-light should not be a 190+ point figure and this design does have the potential to be very scary. He is a great sniper, but that's it. Like most of the other Joes, he is a soldier with a specific aptitude and training. Therefore his point cost should fall somewhere between 120-160 (maybe a push to 170, but I don't think that high).

Originally Posted by tcglkn

He actually seems like his worst builds right now are the Joe armies and he’s gonna be better in generalist builds and thus needs to be costed for those armies.

I don't fully agree with this statement. He can definitely be boosted outside his normal synergy (Cap, Starlord, ect), but the Joes offer things too. Grunt can allow free movement, Duke can give free activations, Scarlett can increase his defense. I did do a test using Low-Light with Cap, Bane and Green Lantern. Gl carried them to high ground and Cap and Bane increased his attack so that he was shooting with and Attack of 5 (for a max possible of 11 hits). However I had to spend 4x his cost to boost him. This build also required an OM on Cap and a turn with GL to move the team around and place shields, leaving only one attack per round with Low-light. However, when he did shoot, it was amazing, but difficult and costly to do.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Oh, and the Joe team isn't anywhere close to done.

This makes me very happy to hear. I was starting to think you've lost interest in them.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Would like to see a few more tests like that, where the match-ups and luck aren't such a huge factor. If he ends up higher, it ends up higher.

This I disagree with. I don't think he should be worth that much. Here is my on this design


NAME = LOW-LIGHT
SECRET IDENTITY = COOPER G. MACBRIDE

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = COMMANDO
PERSONALITY = RESERVED

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = 160

OF THE NIGHT
When Low-Light attacks a figure on a Shadow Tile, the defending figure does not receive any additional defense dice for the Shadow Tile. Low-Light cannot be targeted by non-adjacent figures for any special powers or attacks while on a Shadow Tile.

SNIPER TARGETING
If Low-Light does not move this turn, you may add 3 to his Range number and 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled when he attacks a non-adjacent figure.

DEADLY SHOT
When attacking with Low-Light, each skull rolled counts as an additional hit.



Dropping his range brings him closer to the other Joes, but he can still be an excellent sniper with a Range of 9. Lowing his Defense will bring down his cost and make him rely more on the Shadows for safety (making that decision of high ground or shadows more important). Of the Night is taken from Dr. Midnite. This both simplifies his power and should reduce his cost a tiny bit more.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by fret_gurglo

To achieve the 4 attack on Low-light you had to invest in other figures and that cost is on their cards. It should always be assumed that carry figures are there to carry the guys who can't fly or quickly move into position on their own. Same with figures that give bonuses to Attack. So it's a little unfair to say that Low-light is worth X more because its possible that he can have an attack of 4.

I honestly disagree. Those boosters are available to anyone, but they pay off more with certain figures. It's why Punisher was an A+ figure for so long, it's why Cable is so highly regarded, and it's why figures with defensive podding powers are so scary (not because of how they operate as the only defensive figures, but because of how they stack).

But I'm honestly not even saying Low-Light is worth X more because he can have an attack of 4. He essentially already does have an attack of 6, without bonuses, since 2 with doubling skulls hits like 4 and an auto skull hits like 2 more. And every die you add is like adding 2 more attack. So having a base attack of 4 on him with the auto skull is like having a 10 range 10 attack figure.

So basically he attacks like a 10 range, 6 attack figure who can easily get up to 10 range, 10 attack.

I'm saying he's worth X more because of how he can use bonuses, how he played for me, and, specifically, how he compares to Merlyn.

Dropping his defense some and making him more reliable on the shadow helps. Dropping his range probably helps more. I like the change to Of the Night. That probably moves him a lot closer to Merlyn.