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  #337  
Old July 3rd, 2021, 04:32 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

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Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
I'm glad I could help. For what it's worth, I would appreciate any synergy listing this project can provide; as an outsider, I spend little time with these units compared to the members working to produce them, and I wouldn't want to overlook anything important while playtesting. As an example, I almost missed the synergy with Sir Gilbert, myself, as I can't remember the last time I've seen Gilbert played alongside any Unique Jandar-following squad.
We should definitely start listing synergies in the OPs of each thread once units enter Testing. I'll try to take a pass through Pod 0 and catch everything whenever I get a chance--it's pretty easy to miss some synergies like Gilbert that are actually very good for the unit, and I'm glad that you caught it.

Quote:
If I had articulated my power suggestion more effectively, it would have read something like this:
Quote:
Before revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, you may move that Order Marker to the Army Card of a figure you control that was targeted by the Honored Soul-Guides' Last Will power this round and reveal it there, instead.
My intention was to create a mild effect appropriate for a 50-point unit with two solid powers; in the event of the Soul-Guides' resurrected hero's early destruction, their player can take a couple turns with the remaining Soul-Guide as a consolation instead of losing a round's worth of board control. I think your second interpretation is a nice way to incentivize reviving non-bonding figures, though, and I wouldn't mind a fitting price increase because I would already pay more than 50 points for them in certain bonding armies. However, I would prefer to actually move Order Markers to the revived hero's Army Card so that non-bonding figures such as van Nessing with Order Marker-based powers aren't denied full benefit; if you only bring back a hero for a single round, you might as well be able to use all of its special powers during that round.
I don't mind moving OMs to the revived hero in theory--Van Nessing, Heracles, and Siege are probably the biggest beneficiaries of that change, and so long as that combo with Heracles isn't broken in Testing, I'd be fine with it. It also improves other options like Haduc and the Yokai if they pass SoV, of course.

I'm not sure that this change would significantly improve the Soul-Guides, though. Being left with 1-2 OMs on a lone Soul-Guide would still be crippling when the hero dies quickly, and it doesn't work at all for the second revival. Given that it doesn't add a ton of value to the card/playstyle, I'm not confident that it's worth the added text on an already-complex card.

How about a different type of bonus? For example, a minor addition to your initiative roll when summoning the revived hero would make it easier to get in OM1 at least and give them some strong utility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I like the OM-moving idea (from the Soul-Guides to their Last Will Heroes). We would definitely have to split their power into two, but I think I'm fine with a three power card here as one is Stealth Flying. Space is limited, though. (I took the slight liberty of shortening Honored Soul-Guide to just Soul-Guide after the first instance in each power.)

I returned to the idea of placing the Soul-Guide on the Hero's card to simplify the wording of CNPN, which has the side effect of not needing to negate that figure's powers (each figure can only be brought back once this way, incidentally also making their revival truly their Last Will).
I think that that card is a bit too text heavy for me to be comfortable with it. I'm okay with the unit being underwhelming in competitive play so long as it's an interesting draft pick and fun to play with.

It also took a while to get the current version through Editing, and I think that this design is already pushing a lot of boundaries for its place in an introductory Master Set. As Blue Trails noted, this would probably need to go through the full Editing Checklist again if we wanted to put heroes on different cards or change where the Soul-Guides go (and the negation is necessary as a hack to get around the Viking Spirits issue). In this case, I'd prefer to more closely stick to what has already been etched out rules-wise if we can.
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  #338  
Old July 3rd, 2021, 08:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Yeah, stupid Vikings (and Varks) necessitating negation... That can easily be added back in with the placement of the Soul-Guide on the Hero's card to prevent double revival, though.*

Aren't OMs still "revealed" on dead cards? So even if the last Soul-Guide goes, the Hero can still be used if it's still around.

I'm not as keen on a different bonus.


*The revive glyph could get around this, but IMO that's a fun corner case interaction, and could be achieved with Sturla as well.


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  #339  
Old July 3rd, 2021, 11:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Hmm. I thought that OMs weren't revealed on cards not in play, but a Retchets of Bogdan R&C implies otherwise. That's from Hasbro, though, so it might be outdated like the ruling about LEAs from Parmenio.

My concern was actually more from a practicality standpoint, though. I'm not sure that getting turns with a 5 move and 2 attack melee figure is a significant enough consolation to be worth complicating the card further. I'm fine with the Soul-Guides being a bit hard to manage effectively so long as they can create some fun stories.

I don't mind double revival unless it proves problematic, personally. It broadens their usage a bit and allows for some fun combos like the MacDirk Warriors' Highland Fury.
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  #340  
Old July 6th, 2021, 12:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

I might play these tonight in a test game. So with the current "last will" power, you can bring Allistair back twice to benefit the MacDirks for two extra rounds? Even though he has no power, the benefit comes from the warriors, correct?

So if I brought back Heracles twice, the second time back he would get no bonus against large and huge, could not throw and could not use the "X" marker, correct? The first round back he would have his powers for the whole round?

LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's Army Card so that it has 1 Life remaining, then destroy an Honored Soul Guide you control and replace it with the chosen Hero. At the end of the round, negate that Hero's powers for the entire game and destroy that Hero.

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  #341  
Old July 6th, 2021, 03:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

@Scytale , please correct me if either of the below answers is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskie View Post
I might play these tonight in a test game. So with the current "last will" power, you can bring Allistair back twice to benefit the MacDirks for two extra rounds? Even though he has no power, the benefit comes from the warriors, correct?
Yes. The MacDirks gain extra attack dice from their own Highland Fury power, which is not negated by Last Will.

Quote:
So if I brought back Heracles twice, the second time back he would get no bonus against large and huge, could not throw and could not use the "X" marker, correct? The first round back he would have his powers for the whole round?
Correct; Heracles would only be able to use his special powers during the first round that he was revived, since the negation occurs right before his destruction at the end of the round.
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  #342  
Old July 6th, 2021, 11:40 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'm not sure that this change would significantly improve the Soul-Guides, though. Being left with 1-2 OMs on a lone Soul-Guide would still be crippling when the hero dies quickly, and it doesn't work at all for the second revival. Given that it doesn't add a ton of value to the card/playstyle, I'm not confident that it's worth the added text on an already-complex card.

How about a different type of bonus? For example, a minor addition to your initiative roll when summoning the revived hero would make it easier to get in OM1 at least and give them some strong utility.
NecroBlade already covered the point about Order Markers and a second resurrection, so I'll just say that I don't necessarily mind the minor effect the suggested power would have on the Soul-Guides' viability because the classic Master Sets generally don't produce many top-notch competitive units. Moreover, I don't object to text-heavy cards, but I can respect the desire to keep this one simple.

A different bonus would be fine as long as we stick to the unit's general theme of taking/improving turns with destroyed heroes. I wouldn't want to risk overcomplicating a Master Set figure with something that isn't an intuitive extension of its current purpose. The initiative boost would work, but we would probably have to tie it to Order Markers on the revived figure's Army Card, as it seems odd to let a player leave that hero in their start zone and use the Soul-Guides as a twice-per-game initiative bonus.
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  #343  
Old July 7th, 2021, 07:34 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
@Scytale , please correct me if either of the below answers is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskie View Post
I might play these tonight in a test game. So with the current "last will" power, you can bring Allistair back twice to benefit the MacDirks for two extra rounds? Even though he has no power, the benefit comes from the warriors, correct?
Yes. The MacDirks gain extra attack dice from their own Highland Fury power, which is not negated by Last Will.

Quote:
So if I brought back Heracles twice, the second time back he would get no bonus against large and huge, could not throw and could not use the "X" marker, correct? The first round back he would have his powers for the whole round?
Correct; Heracles would only be able to use his special powers during the first round that he was revived, since the negation occurs right before his destruction at the end of the round.
Astro beat me to it, but I concur. The MacDriks' power is still effective since they weren't negated, and the second round back a hero gets none of its powers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
the classic Master Sets generally don't produce many top-notch competitive units..
Raelin, Krav, Grimnak, and Airborne Elite would all disagree.


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  #344  
Old July 7th, 2021, 08:28 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

So I play tested them last night with the MacDirks.

Army 1: Alistair, Macdirks x3, HSG, Krav
Army 2: Grundermund, Children of the star x 4, Isamu, Myrddin

Board: Honor

Round 1: Tiamat lead with the Children and I lead with the Krav for OM 1 and 2. He tried to move several groups of 5 up, but the Krav were rolling well and picked off 6 in the first round. He killed one Krav and I brought Alistair up and positioned some Macs with OM 3.

Round 2: I got the init switch and moved in with the three attack Macs. By the end of the round, They were attack 4 and mowing down the Children. I took some losses on the Macs, but was winning the position battle.

Round 3: won Init and moved Alistair in to try to steal OM and take out the Children. I did not complete the mission in round 1 with 5 attack Macs, and Alistair went down. The next two turns I try to protect my remaining Macs, which works since he is down to only 3 Children. He move Grunder up in turn 3.

Round 4: I brought Alistair back using one HSG in my start zone and win init. My 7 attack Macs clear out the last Children and steal an OM. I advance on Myrddin and Grunder. round 3 I whiff on three attacks of 7. Alistair jumps on Wannok, but loses a dice off and does not activate it.

Round 5: Tiamat does not have much left and I place Alistair again by replacing a HSG in my start zone. I win Init and hit with 4 attacks of 7 to finish him off.


Summary. HSG are scary good with the MacDirk army. I never put an OM on them. I would say that they are a 100% play with this army. I did not go against much range, which do hurt the Macs, but being able to have 2 rounds 4 attacks of 7 anywhere on the board is very powerful. Tiamat said that higher attack figures (the Children are attack 2, even though they can lower someone's defense dice) might have been able to clear out the Macs better, the Macs do get 4 attacks per turn.

We tried to figure out if any other squads have powers like the Macs. We came up with Greenscales, but they are limited by 2 spaces away from the lizard king (and you would have to use Zogross). The fact that the macs can be anywhere on the board was very powerful. The HSG make the MacDirks a very competitive squad.

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  #345  
Old July 7th, 2021, 12:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

@Muskie that is a very powerful combo, glad you tested. There are other boons such as any unit that adds a power just by being alive or maybe within "clear sight space" such as Raelin, Taelord, Atlaga, Su-Bak-Na, Empress Kiova, Estiva, Nerak, many of the flag-bearers, but none of them are as powerful as Alastair or other MacDirk champion, as they can only be used for their power for one round. Also Kurrok, Marro Hive, and Iskra are helpful to bring back to summon more units.
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  #346  
Old July 8th, 2021, 08:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

The MacDirks are the main combo that comes to mind as a squad that can elect a hero and gain bonuses based on the damage taken. Of course, there's also the potential for medium heroes such as Krug who get stronger the weaker they are (in fact, there's one in our set). I'm okay with the MacDirks being a strong combo with the HSG here since they're rather underwhelming otherwise and the pairing feels pretty thematic.

That said, if it seems overwhelming in Testing, we can always remove the incentive and simultaneously give the non-bonding heroes a significant buff by having revived heroes start out at full life, rather than 1 wound away from death. That would give significantly more leeway to units like Cyprien and Drake, and it mostly only hurts the MacDirk pairing.
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  #347  
Old July 9th, 2021, 12:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Krug isn't a Medium Hero, thankfully.

I would definitely be against something that boosts Cyprien, etc. over the MacDirks. MacDirks would appreciate the help more than those other units.

Here's something that I don't think we've covered: what about making it a once per game power? Truly just a Last Will.

I know we keep going over and over this power, but I can't help but feel it's just not quite what it could be. And it's such a cool concept I'd like to get it right.


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  #348  
Old July 9th, 2021, 06:29 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Heh, I should've specified that there is the potential for medium-sized heroes who get stronger with wounds (such as, but not Krug himself) to emerge in the future; I don't have any concerns about the Soul-Guides reviving Krug specifically right now.

The main goal of removing the "Life - 1" wounds aspect would be to boost non-bonding heroes. That's the main concern that we've heard repeatedly, since the risky nature of OMs makes a Life 1 standalone hero a risky prospect. This has the downside of hurting the MacDirk synergy (which I personally love), but it would otherwise be in line with a lot of the feedback that we've received and simplify the card more. Something worth considering, at the very least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Here's something that I don't think we've covered: what about making it a once per game power? Truly just a Last Will.

I know we keep going over and over this power, but I can't help but feel it's just not quite what it could be. And it's such a cool concept I'd like to get it right.
I'm still not very concerned about reviving a single hero twice, but if we wanted to limit it, then we could just say "Figures cannot be revived by Last Will more than once per game" or something to that extent at the end of the power. Limiting the entire power to once per game would either make the HSGs more niche by splitting attention between two heroes in one round or decreasing their versatility when it's already a bit niche. If we wanted to go with this direction, then I think that we should drop the automatic self-destruction aspect of the power, since otherwise the last HSG is almost useless.
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