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  #25  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:12 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
Power creep is an issue, particularly in light of units like Cather Spearmen and other A and B units. C3V and SOV haven't put in many units that are below that mark and none that are below a considered C.
That's a feature, not a bug. We're making units that we want to be suitable for competitive play. So none that grade out too high, and none that grade out too low.

I'm satisfied that we've generally stayed in that range. Sometimes we miss a little high and get an A unit; sometimes we miss a little low and get something in the C range. That's not on purpose, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Regardless, it's been many years since tournament formats did not account for the efficiency disparity between Unit A and Unit B.

Though I do reject the term "power creep," in that the power level of C3V/SoV units does not seem (to me) to be climbing. It's just that we try to avoid making (or approving) units that have no reason to see the table in competitive play. I don't think the tide is rising on power level, though.

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  #26  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:49 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
Power creep is an issue, particularly in light of units like Cather Spearmen and other A and B units. C3V and SOV haven't put in many units that are below that mark and none that are below a considered C.
That's a feature, not a bug. We're making units that we want to be suitable for competitive play. So none that grade out too high, and none that grade out too low.

I'm satisfied that we've generally stayed in that range. Sometimes we miss a little high and get an A unit; sometimes we miss a little low and get something in the C range. That's not on purpose, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Regardless, it's been many years since tournament formats did not account for the efficiency disparity between Unit A and Unit B.

Though I do reject the term "power creep," in that the power level of C3V/SoV units does not seem (to me) to be climbing. It's just that we try to avoid making (or approving) units that have no reason to see the table in competitive play. I don't think the tide is rising on power level, though.
Not saying it's by plan or anything though specifically designing somewhat competitive units by default would lend itself to creeping up somewhat. There are no Dund or Marro Drudge or because they're made to not be that level. At the same time some classic units have been boosted by C3V/SOV units to a higher rank which does help the game. So there is good and bad to it. For those that casualscape rather than play tourneys that may not appeal to them. At least in my local scene that is the case, it's more about playing to have fun than win something. Not that they don't appreciate the C3V/SOV stuff, much of it is fun and interesting. Truthfully the biggest limitation is still always going to be the out of print ness of figures. Even those created by C3V/SOV, some released years ago and others that aren't even out yet have that issue.

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  #27  
Old September 24th, 2019, 11:27 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

@robbdaman I respectfully disagree with your assessment of power creep. Honestly, you are free to have your own opinion, but I have a hard time taking you seriously when you’ve self proclaimed only being able to play the game 2-3 times a year! It’s true life is busy and some of us don’t get as much time...but I’ll be frank, I don’t think you have a place to tell people with much more experience than you that the units they design are unbalanced or creeping higher in power ranking. It’s just not true. The majority of us that are part of the project probably play at least 2-3 games a week, if not more, not including regular tournaments 2-3 times a year (or every month in some areas). Playing that much with a wide variety of units does something, it gives you experience. I’m not trying to toot my own horn or declare “I am better than though” I’m just trying to be honest about how I see yours (and others) declarations about this project. Let experience speak.
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  #28  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:07 PM
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SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I love the SOV and C3V. As someone who has invested hundreds (multiple hundreds now?) of dollars in SOV/C3V customs, I have a vested interest in seeing these projects continue to thrive and be successful. Putting these characters together, printing and cutting the double-sided cards, and even painting a figure once in a while has provided my wife and me countless hours of bonding and fun. It really is a great project and I wish for many years of continued success. I truly believe these communities are providing future generations a great service by keeping a game alive that spurs creativity and adventure.

With the recent uptick in community comments and concerns regarding the two main custom projects of Heroscape dominating a few other threads, I decided to create this thread to provide an outlet for feedback. My goal for this thread is to bring our community together and make it even better than what it is today by providing an outlet for positive and healthy discussion. I also felt I was probably the best candidate to create this thread since while I have been involved in Heroscape from day one, I only recently got back into the scene a few months ago. Therefore, I have only positive feelings towards everyone and hopefully that is reciprocated allowing this discussion to get off on the right foot.

I’ll start this thread off with my own feedback laid out in a way that I hope others will follow if they wish to participate in this discussion. I will ask the moderators and admins help steer the conversation in a positive direction and I will ask others to be as polite and respectful as possible.

These are just suggestions and not demands so please read them under that light.


SOV Feedback


Standardization of Basics
It would be helpful if the SOV council laid out a document with the basic standards that are required for miniatures, power names, and the basic layout of information. Does the SOV accept metal minis? What are the quantities needed for a mini to be accepted? What is the “look” of a lawman, Kyrie, Zombie? These are questions that I think if answered, will help the designers better able to get the basics out of the way before they even submit their custom. It will also help eliminate some of the discussions that are brought up on a semi-regular basis. Furthermore, once something is accepted as being allowed, like a metal mini, the SOV panel can accept it whether they like the ruling or not and we can avoid those conversations in future submissions. I would also recommend that they recluse themselves from voting if something is submitted that, while allowed by the standards, is still not something they enjoy and therefore it may affect their voting.

Esoteric terminology written out
"Gold Standard" “Too wordy” “Wrong look” “Doesn’t fit the SOV” “Confusing layout” “Powers not setup for kids to understand” etc. We’ve all seen this used as constructive criticism in the past yet I would argue that few know what each statement really means. I’ve also noticed that these terms change meaning based on who is judging that day and perhaps even what mood they are in

It would be really helpful for the community if these terms are laid out and quantified so that the community knows the “SOV” format they should aim for and the judges can have a basis for providing criticism. This will remove individual bias and perhaps help keep the judging to a more consistent standard reducing some of the frustration I see around those threads.

Partnership in Submission
Looking at how the SOV is setup, in the current lineup it is perhaps too challenging to find success. As someone remarked earlier, “why even bother?” I know the SOV takes pride in weeding out bad submissions and wants the system to be setup so that it is challenging to get through to maintain quality, however, I would ask that the SOV also work to increase their success rate while maintaining their standards. Imagine if you were a retail company and you never could release new products because nothing passed the purity test? You wouldn’t be in business for long lol!

I would recommend a partnership process of some sort for future submissions. What I envision, and this is just a thought, is that when someone submits a custom that 2 or 3 SOV judges volunteer to take partnership in the project with the designer for the purpose of helping see it through to completion and official nomination. They can work in a private thread to iron out some of the basics and get the design right. Between the official Heroscape, SOV and C3V, there are a LOT of powers and synergy to contend with when making new customs. It really does take a small team to help produce a quality piece. The end goal should always be to have both quality and quantity.

Term Limits and Elections
I’m sure such a suggestion is not new but I do think it is worth bringing up. With the goal of the Heroscape community as a whole to grow as much as possible, I would recommend that we set term limits for positions so that others can get involved. Perhaps have a 2 year term followed by a 1 year break.

C3V Feedback

Release schedule
The C3V has done amazing work and has really kept this community alive. I do love the releases and look forward to each and every one of them. However, the release schedule seems to be a little sporadic and unpredictable.

I understand that there is a goal to “get it right” and release when its ready, but keep in mind that if you were a retail business, you wouldn’t have the luxury of not releasing a product. It has been often remarked in business that the most creative ideas and the best products were released under difficult restraints. Think back to your favorite Nintendo music of yesterday. You can remember those songs can’t you? And yet they were produced under very limited hardware which, incidentally forced the designer to be as creative as possible. Keeping to a release schedule is tough, but it does help reduce some of the discussion over the minutia while focusing on what is really important.

It will also help with the momentum for the project. I think if you want the general community to be involved, you have to keep to some schedule so that people can look forward to each release. This is something that I think the C3G does really well since there is always something new around the corner.

YouTube Release Announcements
You guys work so hard with each release for the purpose of giving back to the community. Yet some releases tend to be very quiet. I think this is a real shame. I would highly recommend that you provide a YouTube release video for each wave announcement. Here, you can show the figures rebased, the card printed out (double-sided please) and you can talk about the figure and what it was designed to do, who it pairs well with, and its power and personality synergy. This will help people get excited and really show off your hard work.

I will also add that some figures don’t show well on their cards. For some figures it wasn’t until I saw them in person or in someone’s game that I really saw how cool they were. The Confrontation Wolves were a great example. When I finally had them in my possession, I was like “whoa! I can’t wait to try these out!” Seeing the figures in a video would be a great help with the promotion of your project.

Elections and Term Limits
I will broach this subject with the utmost sensitivity since I am an outsider lol! Think about your favorite shows on TV. Family Guy, Simpsons, whatever. Now think back to when it first started vs. where it is today. I would guess that you would say that it is not as good as it once was. The reason is that even the best creators run out of ideas, get burned out, or just need a long break to recharge.

For that reason, I would recommend term limits for C3V positions so that old members can recharge (perhaps wait a year before they can run again after their term is up) and new members can bring their ideas to the fold. It will also help fight the illusion, whether real or not, of the elitism and cliques that is often spoken about.

Summary
I hope these thoughts and suggestions are received in the best light possible. The SOV and C3V are great projects. Keep up the good work and thank you! I'm looking forward to everyone else's thoughts.
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  #29  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:28 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Hey folks, I just created a thread in this forum for feedback. Perhaps these discussions can be moved to that thread so that this thread isn't further derailed.

@sirheroscape just a friendly thought. Your response was a little harsh and combative to Rob. Since you're a member of C3V, remember that people will see you as speaking on behalf of the C3V and since there is a belief whether fair or not that the C3V is standoffish, I don't think that your response helps.

Keep in mind too that perception is just as important as reality for a custom project. It takes a lot of effort to bring a C3V Custom to the table so if a power feels wrong or too strong, it basically means the custom goes unplayed meaning you are essentially designing for yourself and not the community. Rob was referring to perception and casual play, not just tournaments and you should take his opinion seriously since he is a potential C3V customer.

I would add that since Heroscape is often played casually over tournament play, his criticism is valid.
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  #30  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
@robbdaman I respectfully disagree with your assessment of power creep. Honestly, you are free to have your own opinion, but I have a hard time taking you seriously when you’ve self proclaimed only being able to play the game 2-3 times a year! It’s true life is busy and some of us don’t get as much time...but I’ll be frank, I don’t think you have a place to tell people with much more experience than you that the units they design are unbalanced or creeping higher in power ranking. It’s just not true. The majority of us that are part of the project probably play at least 2-3 games a week, if not more, not including regular tournaments 2-3 times a year (or every month in some areas). Playing that much with a wide variety of units does something, it gives you experience. I’m not trying to toot my own horn or declare “I am better than though” I’m just trying to be honest about how I see yours (and others) declarations about this project. Let experience speak.
I'm far from trying to say I'm an authority on this matter though if we're going to discuss the matter these aren't just my words but are opinions also from people who do play more frequently and have many if not all C3V/SOV units that I know. It's something they have expressed about the units going back a few years now. Whether you can understand that focusing on making units that are competitive or not lends itself toward inching up in power levels or not is up to you to decide I guess. Just putting it out there that experience may lean away from seeing that possibility here. Not saying that Stingers and Raelin or Blast/Glads or Knights or 4th Mass still aren't real strong or potentially stronger than what has been made in the Fanscape era, just that more units have been created to be more competitive.

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Last edited by robbdaman; September 24th, 2019 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Feel free to move this talk to SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
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  #31  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:40 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Elections and Term Limits
I would recommend term limits for C3V positions so that old members can recharge (perhaps wait a year before they can run again after their term is up) and new members can bring their ideas to the fold.
Personally, I am totally for this and ready to recharge.

Currently, I am a SoV/C3V editor, which means you really need to know how Heroscape cards are worded (and why they're worded that way) so you can edit new powers so they fit in with Heroscape wording and are as clear as possible.

If anyone is interested in this position, please make yourself known and I and the other editors will evaluate your work.

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Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
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  #32  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:45 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

In case folks are just joining the discussion, my thread was merged with this one so my post may seem confusing. But I'm glad this discussion is taking place! I would ask that the original intention of my thread be kept and this place be used as a constructive feedback area. Thank you!
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  #33  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:46 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
C3V Feedback

Release schedule
The C3V has done amazing work and has really kept this community alive. I do love the releases and look forward to each and every one of them. However, the release schedule seems to be a little sporadic and unpredictable.

I understand that there is a goal to “get it right” and release when its ready, but keep in mind that if you were a retail business, you wouldn’t have the luxury of not releasing a product. It has been often remarked in business that the most creative ideas and the best products were released under difficult restraints. Think back to your favorite Nintendo music of yesterday. You can remember those songs can’t you? And yet they were produced under very limited hardware which, incidentally forced the designer to be as creative as possible. Keeping to a release schedule is tough, but it does help reduce some of the discussion over the minutia while focusing on what is really important.

It will also help with the momentum for the project. I think if you want the general community to be involved, you have to keep to some schedule so that people can look forward to each release. This is something that I think the C3G does really well since there is always something new around the corner.

YouTube Release Announcements
You guys work so hard with each release for the purpose of giving back to the community. Yet some releases tend to be very quiet. I think this is a real shame. I would highly recommend that you provide a YouTube release video for each wave announcement. Here, you can show the figures rebased, the card printed out (double-sided please) and you can talk about the figure and what it was designed to do, who it pairs well with, and its power and personality synergy. This will help people get excited and really show off your hard work.

I will also add that some figures don’t show well on their cards. For some figures it wasn’t until I saw them in person or in someone’s game that I really saw how cool they were. The Confrontation Wolves were a great example. When I finally had them in my possession, I was like “whoa! I can’t wait to try these out!” Seeing the figures in a video would be a great help with the promotion of your project.

Elections and Term Limits
I will broach this subject with the utmost sensitivity since I am an outsider lol! Think about your favorite shows on TV. Family Guy, Simpsons, whatever. Now think back to when it first started vs. where it is today. I would guess that you would say that it is not as good as it once was. The reason is that even the best creators run out of ideas, get burned out, or just need a long break to recharge.

For that reason, I would recommend term limits for C3V positions so that old members can recharge (perhaps wait a year before they can run again after their term is up) and new members can bring their ideas to the fold. It will also help fight the illusion, whether real or not, of the elitism and cliques that is often spoken about.
Thanks for the feedback, Super Sam, and this thread was a good idea.

I'll give you my own personal insider's thoughts on these, which might or might not interest you.

1. Release schedule. Yes. Everything you say. There isn't a good reason why this year has been so slow, I don't think. We have some great things currently finished with Playtesting, so look for a release soon.

2. YouTube release announcements. You think people would be interested? You're probably right. I hope we'll be able to lean on our newest member to help us with that. I've heard he knows a thing or two about YouTube. It's all a mystery to me.

3. Card quality. We take great care with the cards. I think there are different versions of the wolves, with different paint jobs. I'm not sure what happened there. Are other people concerned with card quality?

4. Elections and Term Limits. I could be wrong, but I suspect this feedback is actually offered as an attempt at a solution for the "Release schedule" problem you identified above. We're actually pretty good about keeping people active, or needling them into stepping down (or, on rare occasions, pushing them out). In fact, I believe that the reason we're still around and productive is that we've been successful at managing our personnel effectively. The productivity issue is not connected to burnout, I don't believe, though I understand why a person might guess that that was the case.

Those are just my thoughts. I'm not speaking for the group.

Thanks for your interest and your feedback. We also have the C3V/SoV Question Dump, and if you have particular questions about stuff, you are also welcome and encouraged to ask there. Or wherever, just so long as I can find it and try to answer, if I can.

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  #34  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:54 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Elections and Term Limits
I would recommend term limits for C3V positions so that old members can recharge (perhaps wait a year before they can run again after their term is up) and new members can bring their ideas to the fold.
Personally, I am totally for this and ready to recharge.

Currently, I am a SoV/C3V editor, which means you really need to know how Heroscape cards are worded (and why they're worded that way) so you can edit new powers so they fit in with Heroscape wording and are as clear as possible.

If anyone is interested in this position, please make yourself known and I and the other editors will evaluate your work.
Thank you for being honest about this. It really helps. Just curious, do you remember when you first felt you needed a recharge? I ask because it may help establish an election schedule.

@Dad_Scaper thank you! Funny story, I actually got into the C3V because I saw the customs listed on ebay. When I could actually see the figures, I really thought they looked cool. It was also nice to see them laid out in a gallery format since the seller has multiples for sale. If you look at our Facebook group, more people seem to be getting into the scene because others are sharing their pictures. It really does help to show off the great work!

Regarding term limits, it really wasn't meant in response for anything in particular but more of a chance to get others involved and to give others a much needed break. As quozi pointed out, it may be more needed than realized.
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  #35  
Old September 24th, 2019, 01:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
@sirheroscape just a friendly thought. Your response was a little harsh and combative to Rob. Since you're a member of C3V, remember that people will see you as speaking on behalf of the C3V and since there is a belief whether fair or not that the C3V is standoffish, I don't think that your response helps.
You are quite right. I've only just joined a couple days ago, so I'll have to get used to this now. Thank you for this.
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  #36  
Old September 24th, 2019, 01:31 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

This is in response to the SoV comments. I will not address the C3V ones.

SuperSamyon, I very much appreciate the time and effort you spent putting together these suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Standardization of Basics
It would be helpful if the SOV council laid out a document with the basic standards that are required for miniatures, power names, and the basic layout of information. Does the SOV accept metal minis? What are the quantities needed for a mini to be accepted? What is the “look” of a lawman, Kyrie, Zombie? These are questions that I think if answered, will help the designers better able to get the basics out of the way before they even submit their custom. It will also help eliminate some of the discussions that are brought up on a semi-regular basis. Furthermore, once something is accepted as being allowed, like a metal mini, the SOV panel can accept it whether they like the ruling or not and we can avoid those conversations in future submissions. I would also recommend that they recluse themselves from voting if something is submitted that, while allowed by the standards, is still not something they enjoy and therefore it may affect their voting.
We'd do that if we could, and we have, as much as we are able. But we can't set up rules for stuff we can't anticipate. We never anticipated affordable pre-painted metal miniatures, for example. We could try to figure out situation after situation and detail after detail and spell it all out, but frankly people don't even read the few rules we do have, much less a huge document.

It's mostly a case-by-case basis thing anyway. There is a general rule that all squad figures must be different, but we bent that rule for the Red Ants. Even availability of miniatures is malleable, depending on the design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Esoteric terminology written out
"Gold Standard" “Too wordy” “Wrong look” “Doesn’t fit the SOV” “Confusing layout” “Powers not setup for kids to understand” etc. We’ve all seen this used as constructive criticism in the past yet I would argue that few know what each statement really means. I’ve also noticed that these terms change meaning based on who is judging that day and perhaps even what mood they are in

It would be really helpful for the community if these terms are laid out and quantified so that the community knows the “SOV” format they should aim for and the judges can have a basis for providing criticism. This will remove individual bias and perhaps help keep the judging to a more consistent standard reducing some of the frustration I see around those threads.
Same thing as above. All of the things mentioned here are subjective, and often change based on the situation. Well, some of it is laid out in the rules, in particular the rules about having to submit a card instead of just text, but even that is purposefully vague because we won't fail something if the card doesn't look good. That just doesn't matter. (If you saw criticism on card look/design, please point it out. I can't think of any such situations. Miniatures are a different story, of course.)

When it comes to powers, there are no set rules. That's because powers can literally do anything. Whether or not a power fits within the ruleset and does not cause problems takes a deep understanding of the game and all the units currently in it, as does knowing how wordy a power has to be to correctly describe the power in game terms and sufficiently cover corner cases. Even that technical stuff is practically an art form. Whether or not the powers are right for the design is entirely subjective and very much an art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Partnership in Submission
Looking at how the SOV is setup, in the current lineup it is perhaps too challenging to find success. As someone remarked earlier, “why even bother?” I know the SOV takes pride in weeding out bad submissions and wants the system to be setup so that it is challenging to get through to maintain quality, however, I would ask that the SOV also work to increase their success rate while maintaining their standards. Imagine if you were a retail company and you never could release new products because nothing passed the purity test? You wouldn’t be in business for long lol!

I would recommend a partnership process of some sort for future submissions. What I envision, and this is just a thought, is that when someone submits a custom that 2 or 3 SOV judges volunteer to take partnership in the project with the designer for the purpose of helping see it through to completion and official nomination. They can work in a private thread to iron out some of the basics and get the design right. Between the official Heroscape, SOV and C3V, there are a LOT of powers and synergy to contend with when making new customs. It really does take a small team to help produce a quality piece. The end goal should always be to have both quality and quantity.
Being an SoV Judge takes a LOT of time and effort. And frustration. On top of many hours of testing we also have to deal with the stress of angry commenters. Adding to that workload is simply not going to happen. And let's be clear, working as a partner in a design is time-consuming, stressful work. We just don't have the energy or bandwidth.

Nor should we develop such a partnership, imo. That's not what the SoV is founded upon or designed to do. It is not a design workshop. We exist to approve existing customs for inclusion into canon. We are gatekeepers, not designers, and submissions are not ours to modify. The creation workshop role is filled by the C3V. Of course that is private, though there have been a couple of attempts to make public ones for SoV submission, and some of us Judges participated. These have inevitably burnt out because they take a lot of work and are filled with frustration.

The Pre-SoV workshop fulfills this to some extent. Some of us Judges take extra time and effort to help workshop units there, as well as other helpful community members. The quality of submissions has definitely improved since that thread started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Term Limits and Elections
I’m sure such a suggestion is not new but I do think it is worth bringing up. With the goal of the Heroscape community as a whole to grow as much as possible, I would recommend that we set term limits for positions so that others can get involved. Perhaps have a 2 year term followed by a 1 year break.
That simply won't work unless we get a lot more interest. When a Judge leaves we sometimes put out a call for new submissions to fill the role, and we normally get only a couple entrants. Sometimes we've had to go seek out people and ask them to submit. Frankly we can only just barely find enough to keep running as we are; there's no way we could keep enough if we pushed people out.

It's not surprise. As I said, being an SoV Judge is a ton of work. It is unfun, sometimes stressful, and cuts deep into one's personal time.
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