Heroes with too many powers

[rdhight]

I know many of you have struggled with the endless power lists of Green Lantern and the large arsenals of heroes like Batman and Iron Man, and I've seen some of the "for more powers, see page 2" cards and equip-item systems you've come up with. While I respect the work you put in, there are a couple of basic problems with this.

1. They require house-rule game mechanics to get into play.

2. They add powers, but they don't add models, thereby leaving huge design space untapped.

I think by imitating Iskra and the Rechets, it's possible to progress from multi-card heroes to multi-model heroes-- in other words, give certain powers a figure, a base and a card of their own. For instance (and this is all very rough):





A custom armored hero could use a "Launch Missiles" power to summon, and immediately take a turn with, a unique squad of two move-10 flying figures with a range-1 area attack that automatically die at the end of their one and only turn. You could even write a card that begins off the board, then when certain conditions are met, sends its model directly to an enemy's card, like a viking spirit, to represent missile lock, a magical curse, or other persistent power.

The key is, they can work within the rules as written by analogy with viking spirits and rechets, and they could add a satisfying depth to a character's powers by giving him a temporary extra model to work with.

I hope to have some fully finished examples one of these days.

[IAmBatman]

I'm honestly confused as to how this works? Are Hal Jordan's stats/points all 0 because you just haven't filled them out (i.e. it's just a mock up) or are they intentionally zeroes as part of the design?
I know you're trying to stick within the mechanics of HS as a whole, which is awesome and I favor. I'm not sure if these add anything to the ease of gameplay, though, beyond just requiring you to go and get different figures for each power, I also find this a lot harder to understand than the equipment card add ons. I might just be thick, though.
That said, what if it's someone like Batman - is he going to be on the map and then deploy a Batman with a batarang or a Batman with a batline?
As you can see, I'm really not following all of this ...

[rdhight]

Just for you, I went back and added some placeholder stats for Hal Jordan.

I agree that finding an existing figure for some powers could be difficult. Since these two are just energy emanations, you could probably find something green and abstract. For technological "summons" maybe you could clip missiles/bombs off disposable toy jets or something and base them.

To answer the larger question... what it adds to the game is the figures. A lot of semi-permanent effects will be too hard to remember without figures to represent them. By placing the shield form near a group of allies, you know it will protect these two figures while that one is outside the field. You could "fake" the shield effect with something like "Choose a space. When any friendly figure adjacent to the chosen space would receive a wound, ignore the first three wounds..." and so on. But now you have a card to place the wound markers on, and a model to help you remember which figures are affected. And you have a target for enemies who want to break the shield before aiming at high-defense figures inside. It would all be too much to remember otherwise.

Compare the servant to Magneto's magnetic throw. Magneto tosses the figure through the air. He just moves it from one space within a certain distance of him to another space within a certain distance of him. The servant has a similar function, but because it's a figure, you don't have to write down that it's stopped by water, must count extra for height, etc. Making the power a figures simulates ground-based effects without needing to write every movement rule on the card.

Another purpose is to make the effect attackable and destructible, or to allow more defensive powers to interact with it. You could write a power that immobilized certain enemies until certain conditions are met, but making the servant a figure with cyberclaw lets the victim fight free under all normal rules (or their allies free him, etc.). If you wanted to immobilize an enemy without using a figure, you would need something like "The chosen figure, or any other figure within his own Range of the affected figure, may choose to roll a d20 instead of attacking. If he rolls a 9 or higher, the chosen figure can move again." or something like that. By making the prison a figure that can be attacked normally, you're radically simplifying your execution of the concept: that it's a barrier you can break out of. And no one has to remember which figures are subject.

Going back to the missile example I mentioned earlier, if they're done as medium squad figures, the Nakitas could engagement-strike them right out of the air, while Templar Cavalry will gain an additional defense die against them-- and it doesn't take any extra lines on the card to allow those interactions. If it were just "Range 10. Attack 4. Lob 50" you wouldn't get those little extra ways to protect yourself.

Again thinking of the Servant, creating a figure at a distance to go attack the enemy in melee would be good against Sgt. Drake, but bad against Samurai. And, you don't need to put all those complicated interactions on a card-- the players will just know them already! That's what's good about it-- you get access to all the rules for figures without having them take up space on the card!

[IAmBatman]

So this is really only something that would be designed for a Green Lantern type, right? I don't see it as representing the utility belt very well.
It's an idea I really like, and if I had a plastic mold to make myself a giant green hammer and a giant green fist and a giant green shield and a giant green gangster with a machine gun and lots of stuff like it, I'd use it for sure.
But I don't. In fact I'm far behind the figures I want to even represent the cards I'm making. So, it's really cool, but something that, for me, personally, would be more work than reward, I think.

[Ted]

I agree. I love the concept but without the actual figures to represent them it would be hard to do. It opens the door also to somene wanting to keep adding things to either the utility belt or to Green laterns forms. If there was a limit to the number of forms you could have at the start of the game or the forms had points them selves then it would be more balanced.

[GreyOwl]

To use this, you'd have to assign point costs to each "item", I would think.

[IAmBatman]

As of now I only have two add ons - one is for Green Lanterns they have rings with three powers not on their card - they can only use one at once (I'm going to change the mechanics so that you put an order marker on the power you're currently using, so the static defensive powers are clearly on or off).
My other add on is Lex Luthor's Battlesuit, which has its own cost and is designed to be represented by another figure that would take Lex Luthor's place on the battlefield but combine the powers on both cards.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

So this is really only something that would be designed for a Green Lantern type, right? I don't see it as representing the utility belt very well.

You never know. For instance, Batman might have the power:

LAUNCH BATLINE
After attacking, you may place the Batline Anchor within 6 clear sight spaces of Batman, even if it was not on the battlefield.

Then the batline anchor would be a base with a little model of a clamp or grappling hook on it and:

BATLINE MOVEMENT
If Batman is within 6 spaces of Batline Anchor, he may swing over water without stopping, swing over figures without becoming engaged, and swing over obstacles such as ruins (lots of space for more, etc...). He may ignore the height of tiles on or below the level of Batline Anchor.

UTILITY BELT
Batline anchor does not start the game on the battlefield. It must be launched by Batman.

Life 1
Move 0
Attack 0
Defense 5
Range 0

As for what this adds for Batman? A strategic aspect. You mentioned wanting to keep a separation between Batline and swing line. This way, while Spider-Man can decide where he wants to swing to at the beginning of his turn, Batman has to look ahead and decide where he will want to swing to the next turn.

It also adds a new vulnerability: enemies can destroy the grappling hook or throw it to somewhere it won't be as useful, making Batman more "human." And a Gladiatron could clamp onto the line so it can't be retracted. I'm not expecting you or anyone to run out and change your own playtested cards to incorporate my speculative idea, but there's still potential there, I think.

[IAmBatman]

I think it's a cool idea, and you should pursue it. It certainly would add a new dimension to things.

[Helznicht]

As far as the Green Lantern is concerned, I feel all the cards I have seen are making it way to complex.

The rings are near unlimited to what they can do (in the right hands). But 90% of the time you only see Fly, Strength, Shield, Beam Attack and some construct that in some way hurts one or more targets.

So breaking a card down is

Flight Power
Strength (SS Symbol)
Shield- just increase defense
Beam Attack - basic ranged or melee attack
Construct - I suggest the following:

Area effect attack: GL can attack up to 4 targets in up to 4 hexes that are adjacent to each other within the the max range 6 hexes from GL. Large creatures in two targeted hexes are attacked twice.

This is kinda like the Hulk area effect, but more flexible. You can imagine what ever you want the construct to be, giant baseball bat, giant snapping crab claw, circuis car full of clowns plowing through the area, UV emiter blasting a beam on some undead, etc...

Stats can be litterally what you want them to be and can be balanced with sinestro disadvantages and a limit to how many time a construct can be used (to sim power drain).

Should fit on one card and flexability is in the imagination.