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  #1945  
Old November 10th, 2017, 08:48 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Be warned that putting a mini like Jace up for consideration may result in a direct fail. Jace is a signature character in a rather popular game. To many people that mini will be Jace no matter what you do in the same way a guy with a chainsaw arm will always be Ash.

Otherwise I really like where you are going, and Ixe's suggestions are really good. Especially giving him a proper name since that will reduce the number of times you write "Illusions" on the card which right now feel clunky.


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  #1946  
Old November 10th, 2017, 08:50 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
I'd like to have you guys take a look at one of my newest customs. I think he'd make a good SoV figure - many of us have him already and he brings something totally new to the table. I really don't know about price, I'm tending to Master of Illusions being around 150 and the Illusions costing around 30 per squad.

Spoiler Alert!
Nice adaptation of AotP!!

I do think the Master is probably closer to 200-points. A double attack of 5 easily becomes two attacks of 6 with height (easy to achieve with 6 move).

That's fine if you want to base half of your army around his concept. That works for units like Tor-Kul-Na. But maybe a drop to 150-point with Attack 4 and Defense 3 (like Sonlen).

The Illusions are cool. Did you intent for them to have No Visible hit zones? Makes them much more powerful but understandable with the concept. I also don't think they should rebirth when any figure is destroyed. Makes them too powerful/flexible for a Common Squad.

But very cool! (and it would be nice to get my AotP figures out on the playing field too).
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  #1947  
Old November 10th, 2017, 09:30 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Really cool idea.

One basic problem to consider: the illusions come with just 3 in the box. I’d be very hesitant to make them a common squad, since you get one master for every 3 illusions. I’d try to play around with a unique squad look.
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  #1948  
Old November 10th, 2017, 09:34 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Make it a unique sqaud, and if you can, find a way to simplify the Hero+Squad. Feels really complex in this iteration.

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  #1949  
Old November 10th, 2017, 10:41 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A neat concept to be certain, and pretty well-executed. I have to agree that the Move and Attack stats feel overly high for a Wizard, but it's up to you to determine if it's really necessary for the design, or that he and his Illusions have to take up so much of your army point-wise. At least for Move it seems like he'd be able to get by with a value as low as 4 because of his illusion tricks (and it would make him more dependent on those tricks, which is a good thing).
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  #1950  
Old November 10th, 2017, 11:34 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
or that he and his Illusions have to take up so much of your army point-wise.
I agree with this. With his current stats and abilities, he could easily be 200pts. A 200pt human hero isn't unheard of (Heracles, Spartacus, Kato), but it also means that that figure is probably the lynch-pin of the whole army (in the case of spartacus or Kato), or a friggin' half-god who can destroy just about anything (Heracles) . If he is going to be a figure with an army based around him, then he probably outta have more synergies than just a Unique Squad imo. If not, then I'd suggest watering down some of his stats, so he can be a solid 150pt hero with a unique squad (50pts) to help him out...so that in a 500pt army setting there's still 300pts to have for common squads as your army base.

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  #1951  
Old November 10th, 2017, 12:54 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The Illusions are a common squad from what I can tell.
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  #1952  
Old November 10th, 2017, 02:33 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think the change to a unique squad is a pretty obvious (and necessary) improvement. I'm not sure about the illusion power, except that I like the theme and the idea. I'll give some thought to the mechanics when this design is further along.

I think the attack of 5 is too high, given Double Attack and the disruptive illusion powers. I like 4, or possibly 3. But not 5. It throws off the value of the unit too much.

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  #1953  
Old November 10th, 2017, 04:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
On his own the Master is very threatening with a double attack of 5 for your projected 150 points. Double attack aside, 5 just feels a bit high for the normal attack of a wizard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I have to agree that the Move and Attack stats feel overly high for a Wizard, but it's up to you to determine if it's really necessary for the design, or that he and his Illusions have to take up so much of your army point-wise.
I think you are correct. I want him to be powerful enough to be a real shark, threatening and taking out figures and disappearing. But I think that can be done with a double attack of 4. I changed the class to Trickster. I didn't really like Wizard much, but didn't know what to pick. Trickster sounds faster, so that accounts for the speed. I want him to have the same move as the Illusions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
I'd further suggest that you keep in mind a few rules issues. Recurring illusions is cool but it may be a bit much to have that play out for your entire army. Also, triggering it off destroy is definitely an issue. What happens when you destroy one as part of Just an Illusion or Not an Illusion but then roll to replace it immediately with Recurring Illusions? Where does the Master go? Maybe just limit it to receiving wounds. Now that I look at it, it is a little strange that Not an Illusion destroys an illusion entirely. Shouldn't that imply where the Master was was actually an illusion and they should switch accordingly? Furthermore, consider what is supposed to happen with some of these powers like Just an Illusion when cyberclaw is involved.
I like the name "Recurring Illusions" and the idea that, as long as the Master is there, the mind games don't stop. I've changed it to something Nicholas Esenwein-like to eliminate the problems with figures being destroyed. I also see your point with swapping instead of destroying and have changed it accordingly.

As far as the rest of the rules go, movement is the same as when Arashara switches figures, as near as I can figure. I believe Cyberclaw keeps them there. I added the clause about engagement strikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Be warned that putting a mini like Jace up for consideration may result in a direct fail. Jace is a signature character in a rather popular game. To many people that mini will be Jace no matter what you do in the same way a guy with a chainsaw arm will always be Ash.

Otherwise I really like where you are going, and Ixe's suggestions are really good. Especially giving him a proper name since that will reduce the number of times you write "Illusions" on the card which right now feel clunky.
He got a name. As to the mini, I'm really not familiar with Magic, or whatever Ash is from, but the Super Battle Droids and Geonosian Ships come from a more mainstream and more recognizable source. So here's hoping!


Quote:
Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post
The Illusions are cool. Did you intent for them to have No Visible hit zones? Makes them much more powerful but understandable with the concept.
That's correct. I think the combination of no visible hit zones and 0 defense is really cool thematically - you can't tell it's not real until you attack it up close, and then you realize, it's nothing but mist (no shields to roll).






Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
or that he and his Illusions have to take up so much of your army point-wise.
I agree with this. With his current stats and abilities, he could easily be 200pts. A 200pt human hero isn't unheard of (Heracles, Spartacus, Kato), but it also means that that figure is probably the lynch-pin of the whole army (in the case of spartacus or Kato), or a friggin' half-god who can destroy just about anything (Heracles) . If he is going to be a figure with an army based around him, then he probably outta have more synergies than just a Unique Squad imo. If not, then I'd suggest watering down some of his stats, so he can be a solid 150pt hero with a unique squad (50pts) to help him out...so that in a 500pt army setting there's still 300pts to have for common squads as your army base.
I was thinking in the direction that the Illusions are worth very little on their own, but are viewed more as an accessory to the hero (like Sonya Esenwein). And the hero is supposed to be a shark that really rips up an enemy, which means that the cost needs to match the function and be a significant point investment.





Thank you all for your thoughts. Here's the updated version:

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  #1954  
Old November 10th, 2017, 04:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I like all the edits.
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  #1955  
Old November 10th, 2017, 05:15 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That’s a lot of defensive stats, too, between the 4 defense, 5 life, and illusion powers. I might cut the life or defense by 1.

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  #1956  
Old November 10th, 2017, 05:18 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Class of Trickster and personality Tricky is just redundant. Keep class Wizard as that is what he is. It also allows for more synergies.

EDIT: I agree with the edits. Mechanically this seems much cleaner. I would try to price point him around 150 and make the unique squad 50pts 'ish. That way, on his own he's still strong, but with his "helpers" - if you will - he can become friggin scary...just like Cyprien and Sonya as you previously mentioned...Making it almost necessary for a player to draft both in order for him to fill his points. 200pts in a hero is no small investment. I also like how it's a unique squad that he can continue to bring back...makes them much more valuable, but not so valuable you can't lose 1 or 2 here or there.

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