HS2010's Custom Units - A Challenge To Myself

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

And yeah, they already outpace him (7+7+7 > 5+5+ which is why I'd consider Spider synergy secondary to Greenscale synergy. There is still room for him to simply be a thematic unit, even if he's lackluster on the competitive standard.

Yes, Spider synergy will be secondary, but it's still a nice treat to them, and him. I'd like to not make him work only with Greenscales like Zogross (I know Zogross works with Armocs and others too, but without being a Warlord, the Armocs and basically all of the other options would be bad choices with Drak).

That's kinda the thing I don't like about the Greenscale bonding is that you have to choose one option over all others. I understand the theme and I like the card but that's something that has to be kept in mind, IMO, as Lizardfolk figures are added - is this guy versatile enough to work with both the Greenscales and some other option? There's already 10 options with Dragons and Lizardfolk. That's the most amount of bonding options of any bonding power (9 Warlords and 8 Human Champions), and yet you can only pick one of the 10 to play in a single game.

I'm going to drop Charging Assault and find something else. I still like Shield Spike, and his stat line (at Move 6).

[bmon]

What about Frenzy? Seems like it fits with the figure, fits well with Ullar, and could make for interesting choices in gameplay - making use of frenzy but not straying from the Greenscales too far - like a reckless leader impulsively charging through battle.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by bmon

What about Frenzy? Seems like it fits with the figure, fits well with Ullar, and could make for interesting choices in gameplay - making use of frenzy but not straying from the Greenscales too far - like a reckless leader impulsively charging through battle.

I think I'm going to roll with this and Combat Challenge, and drop Shield Spike, keeping stats the same.

With the release of the Durgeth Ravagers, I'm now teetering between Drak being a Predator or a Savage, and I think he could fit either. Benefits to being a Savage would be that he doesn't have to compete with Quahon for both spots. He'll be a bit behind with the Ravagers' Savage Cry, but he could Frenzy to the front lines. Combat Challenge could then keep the Ravagers around a little longer.

That power set also plays well with the Spiders so I think I'm going to play him both ways (no matter the power set) and decide which way at the very end of the design.

Spoiler Alert!

Drak Whiptail
Ullar

Lizarfolk
Unique Hero
Predator or Savage
Ferocious
MEDIUM 5

Life 5
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 3
Points 110-130

FRENZY
After you take a turn with Drak Whiptail, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Drak Whiptail.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent’s figure that is adjacent to Drak Whiptail attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack Drak Whiptail.

SHIELD SPIKE
When rolling defense dice, if Drak Whiptail rolls at least one shield, the most wounds Drak Whiptail may take for this attack is one and if the attacking figure is adjacent to Drak Whiptail, that figure receives one wound.

Also considering keeping Shield Spike, or adding Combat Leader or various other special powers. Would like to keep the power set to two powers, though.

[bmon]

I've been really intrigued with this guy and have been thinking about him a lot. I really like how he could fit in so well among other units. Thoughts on the following?

Drak Whiptail
Ullar

Lizardfolk
Unique Hero
Predator
Ferocious (Relentless?)
MEDIUM 5

Life 5 (4 to keep his cost lower?)
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 3
Points 90-110 (80?)

FRENZY
After you take a turn with Drak Whiptail, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Drak Whiptail.

RELENTLESS VENGEANCE
Anytime you roll the 20-sided die for Drak Whiptail's Frenzy, you may add 1 for each previously destroyed warrior or scout figure you own, to a maximum of 3.

If the attempt is to differentiate this guy from other bonding options, then perhaps the target niche should be for a cheaper option. The design above aims for this.

Firstly, I wonder if Relentless would be a better fit for him. All other Frenzy able units are either Relentless or Precise. Relentless captures the spirit of Frenzy quite well.

If no longer aiming for "staying power", but rather looking to get a cheaper bonding option, then perhaps his life could be brought down to 4. He seems like he could be a great offensive power. Frenzy can be devastating, especially if you take into account what I'm proposing as a second ability.

For a second ability, I'm thinking a power that boosts his ability to Frenzy would be unique. He would be the only Hero with the Frenzy ability. It would seem appropriate that he could have a greater chance to frenzy. To tie it into his bonding options, you could make it boost off of those units. The Greenscales are loyal to him. Seems reasonable that their deaths could cause him to seek vengeance and trigger his relentlessness. Including scouts allows the Fyorlag Spiders and other units with common synergies like the Venocs.

Most importantly though is what this all does for the goal of the design - cheaper/smaller options. He would be a great fit for a small army. I don't think you'd want to draft more than 2 squads of Greenscales since he isn't likely to stick around very long. His Frenzy boost would trigger off only 3 dead units, so he could conceivably do pretty well even with just 1 squad and fit into a mix and match army. I think this could be unique and really fun to play as well.

[Sheep]

I agree that another Lizardfolk Hero would be a welcomed addition, which is why I've been working on this guy for a little while now.

I'm not entirely sold that his niche should be being a cheap option for the Greenscales. I'm not even sure that niche is possible. Any possible Dragon or Lizardfolk with little survivability breaks to two keys of success for the Greenscales.

Originally Posted by Rich10

These were my observations:

• Keeping the dragon alive is paramount. The Greenscales are a weak squad without the dragon/lizard king.
• In most cases, 2 squads of Greenscales is enough. Otherwise, you run the risk that the dragon will get killed first.

When playing the Greenscales, you want the Dragon or Lizardfolk to outlast them. There's no way I would put him under 5 life, even with a defensive power.

I originally had Relentless as his personality but bonding with 3 different units is a lot. I'm not saying it couldn't pass SoV but just something to keep in mind. I agree that if Frenzy is kept, Relentless should be his personality, as oftentimes special powers are tied to Species, Class, or Personality. Now with you version, he really only has two true bonding options, the Greenscales and Spiders, but that brings me to another point.

I've said it since the beginning that I would really like not to limit his abilities to whoever he bonds with. I'd like to keep an open line. If he came in at 120, I'm not saying he has to compete with Kaemon Awa or Krug for the best 120pt figure, but it'd be nice if he could be chosen without his bonding units too. He seems uberly aggressive, so having him stray from his units is kind of his thing. That's what makes Frenzy a good fit in the first place, and also why I don't think your second power, or any power that has him caring a lot for his friendlies, makes sense.

With that said, my biggest qualms with Frenzy have been that he'd be the first Hero to have it. Figures with Frenzy are rated B+ (Venoc Vipers), B (Aubrien Archers), and then C (Elite Onyx Vipers). Frenzy-ing with a Common Squad is more rewarding than Frenzy-ing with a Unique Squad. Similarly, Frenzy-ing with a squad period is more rewarding than Frenzy-ing with a Hero. This is especially the case when it happens only one-fourth of the time. With Drak, it feels like you need him to Frenzy more often. Your second power makes that work, I just don't think it works thematically for Draks aggressiveness. I don't think he's aggressive because he's vengeful. I think he's aggressive because that's just what he is - a predator or savage.

Lizardfolk Wiki

Originally Posted by Combat

Most lizardfolk had little interest in battle tactics or strategy, and they fought as a disorganized mass of individuals. Despite their impressive hunting skills, lizardfolk often relied on strength and weight of numbers in battle, and simply charged their foes head-on.

I'm definitely keeping an open mind, but I'm not exactly sure how well Frenzy works on Unique figures.

EDIT: I should actually say that Frenzy doesn't work well for figures that aren't around to use it. The Venocs and Aubriens have the common squad thing going for them. They are going to get their chances every game to Frenzy as long as they have the numbers. The Elite Vipers have Evasive to keep them in the game to engage their opponent, but if they don't Frenzy once that happens they are asking for trouble. So really the key to Frenzy is making sure the figure is around long enough to make use of it. Sure, a double attack of 5 is potent, but it's not going to happen very often. If Drak only last for a couple of turns once he's engaged, Frenzy may never trigger.

The key to success with Frenzy is survivability. That's the same key to success for the Greenscales and their Lizard King.

[bmon]

Good points. I don't really know much (honestly anything) about Lizardfolk, just that they look cool. So I come into this from a purely Heroscape mindset of how he could work with other units and that to me is the most exciting part about him. I'm still really disappointed that Lizardfolk don't have any regeneration ability - that would have been so perfect.

Frenzy does well in portraying aggressiveness and I like it a lot with him, but yes, as a Unique Hero, it needs to be boosted. It could be just simply a secondary ability that is nice when you hit it, but isn't the focal point of the unit. However, I think Frenzy is a worthy ability to be the focus of a design. Just look at the other Frenzy units. It could also be just "Frenzy 13" or something like that, if you don't like the synergies.

Of course, I like the synergies, but I also liked the boost to Frenzy coming out of actual game play results/triggers. It's just much more interesting that way. Even if it is something as simple as this...

RELENTLESS INSTINCTS
If Drak is within 4 clear sight spaces of a small or medium enemy figure, you may add 3 to his D-20 roll.

This plays off of his predatory nature and keeps it game play related.

Anyway just tossing stuff out there as it seemed you were still unclear which abilities you wanted to give him.

[bmon]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

The key to success with Frenzy is survivability.

I know where you are going with that, but I'd just like to point out that there is only 1 unit out there that has 0 for defense. That unit also has Frenzy.

Frenzy is about getting to your prey and hitting them hard before they have a chance to retaliate, not necessarily about surviving. You could say the key to any ability is in surviving long enough to use it.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by bmon

Good points. I don't really know much (honestly anything) about Lizardfolk, just that they look cool. So I come into this from a purely Heroscape mindset of how he could work with other units and that to me is the most exciting part about him. I'm still really disappointed that Lizardfolk don't have any regeneration ability - that would have been so perfect.

Frenzy does well in portraying aggressiveness and I like it a lot with him, but yes, as a Unique Hero, it needs to be boosted. It could be just simply a secondary ability that is nice when you hit it, but isn't the focal point of the unit. However, I think Frenzy is a worthy ability to be the focus of a design. Just look at the other Frenzy units. It could also be just "Frenzy 13" or something like that, if you don't like the synergies.

Of course, I like the synergies, but I also liked the boost to Frenzy coming out of actual game play results/triggers. It's just much more interesting that way. Even if it is something as simple as this...

RELENTLESS INSTINCTS
If Drak is within 4 clear sight spaces of a small or medium enemy figure, you may add 3 to his D-20 roll.

This plays off of his predatory nature and keeps it game play related.

Anyway just tossing stuff out there as it seemed you were still unclear which abilities you wanted to give him.

You're definitely good. I love the discussion!

I hear you about not knowing much about the D&D world that the late 'Scape stuff came from, so I've been reading whatever I can. Apparently that stuff matters to the SoV judges (I never knew! ).

I thought about just doing "Frenzy XX" but the problem with it is that Frenzy now isn't "Frenzy 16", so I think it would cross a fine line of power titles and d20s. The problem with the Frenzy-boosting powers, besides my personal preference of not making additional synergies, would be that it's replacing another possible power. I think Frenzy would work best as a secondary reward power, that can potentially cause havoc on a tough Hero.

Originally Posted by bmon

I know where you are going with that, but I'd just like to point out that there is only 1 unit out there that has 0 for defense. That unit also has Frenzy.

True, but as I said, they have numbers that keep the squad around. Not necessarily the individual. Uniques don't have that, which is why Frenzy for the Elite Onyx Vipers, once their survivability power is countered, isn't as good as the Venocs.

Frenzy is about getting to your prey and hitting them hard before they have a chance to retaliate, not necessarily about surviving. You could say the key to any ability is in surviving long enough to use it.

In the real world, yes, going on a frenzy is just hitting as hard as you can before they hit back. Frenzy in the game is about the same thing, but it's all up to the odds to keep going, and in this case, the odds are highly stacked against you. Without survivability, once I engage an opponent with Drak I may not live long enough to try to Frenzy again.

That's why the key to a Frenzy reward in the game is survivability.

Spoiler Alert!

[bmon]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

I thought about just doing "Frenzy XX" but the problem with it is that Frenzy now isn't "Frenzy 16", so I think it would cross a fine line of power titles and d20s. The problem with the Frenzy-boosting powers, besides my personal preference of not making additional synergies, would be that it's replacing another possible power. I think Frenzy would work best as a secondary reward power, that can potentially cause havoc on a tough Hero.

There's actually precedence set already. Just look and the Shaolin Monks and Stealth Leap and Master Win Chi Woo. Using that as a template, Frenzy XX should still be considered Frenzy.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by bmon

There's actually precedence set already. Just look and the Shaolin Monks and Stealth Leap and Master Win Chi Woo. Using that as a template, Frenzy XX should still be considered Frenzy.

Nice catch! I think I'm going to go with the following version for now and if the only issue is that he needs to Frenzy more often I'll lower it:

Drak Whiptail
Ullar

Lizarfolk
Unique Hero
Predator or Savage
Relentless
MEDIUM 5

Life 5
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 3
Points 130

FRENZY
After you take a turn with Drak Whiptail, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Drak Whiptail.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent’s figure that is adjacent to Drak Whiptail attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack Drak Whiptail.

SHIELD SPIKE
When rolling defense dice, if Drak Whiptail rolls at least one shield, the most wounds Drak Whiptail may take for this attack is one. If Drak Whiptail recieves no wounds and the attacking figure is adjacent to Drak Whiptail, that figure receives one wound.

I like the combination of Combat Challenge and Shield Spike. Combat Challenge also allows Zogross an opportunity to strike. It would be hard to set up but it would be fun to use.

Frenzy comes in as a nice bonus to hit a Hero again or kill another squaddie.

I want to playtest all of the bonding options and how much damage Shield Spike can really do. If it proves to be too much I could limit it to small or medium figures either for the whole thing or just the wound.

[bmon]

You'll have to see what other people think. I personally think the three abilities is just "too much". Amidst the other two abilities, Frenzy feels out of place and unnecessary. If going the Frenzy route, I do believe it should be the focal point. If going the Shield Spike route (which is a cool ability that jives with the sculpt's shield), then that should be the focal point.

I just ordered the figure last night. I'll be watching with interest!

[Zetsubo]

To me it seems like Shield Spike would be too powerful as an instant auto wounder on an adjacent attacker. What about giving a limit to when the wound applies? Instead of an instant counterstrike, you could limit it to when the attacker fails to give him a single wound. That would allow Drak to get a free hit in without him handing out free wounds like Halloween candy.

SHIELD SPIKE
When rolling defense dice, if Drak Whiptail rolls at least one shield, the most wounds Drak Whiptail may take for this attack is one. If Drak Whiptail recieves no wounds and if the attacking figure is adjacent to Drak Whiptail, that figure receives one wound.