NM24 - Process

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by hidicul

OK first off I didn't say it was gamebreaking. And yes Griff I agree that you should be able to adapt. I was just a little concerned about how low the number needed is, but if no one else is then thats fine. As far as a ranged attack on him I honestly can't remember if he attacks from range or not. I'll add to the not my fave Avenger posts since I really don't like him. After spellchecking this I noticed something, I think someone added Griff to the spellchecker because it didn't question me about it. So what do you think about that Griff, you are now an official word on the site

I... am... official. I am honored.

[badgermaniac]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

Well, it's pretty much a tweaked version of Dund's power; it has a 20% better chance of working then Dund's, but has one less range and can only target Unique Heroes, as opposed to Dund who can target anyone. It's certainly a dangerous ability in Superscape, but I dunno if I'd call it gamebreaking or anything. Considering his stats, it seems to make up a good chunk of his point cost, which I could see going higher because of this power, but it's certainly cost-able.

That was exactly the intent. His character is overall, pretty powerful, but he does so without having much of an offensive punch. With a range of one, an attack of 4, and no specials, he really is quite weak without his OM negating ability.

[badgermaniac]

Originally Posted by Aldin

I'm with badgermaniac - Starfox is one of my least favorite "heroes". Narcisstic egotistical sexual predator

On to the card though. LnaF is certainly his iconic ability. EP I'm having a harder time understanding. Why does it make him more vulnerable to range? I don't really have a problem with some version of "tough" for him, I simply can't follow what this particular version is supposed to represent. Also, shouldn't he, like Thanos, have a ranged attack (and should Thanos specifically or Eternals generally be immune to LnaF)?

If you wanted to go a different direction, he could have some version of mind control - either temporary like Doom or permanent like Ne Gok Sa. Heck, you could keep LnaF and ADD a Doom-like mind control if you wanted to drop EP (adding some defense/life).

~Aldin, conceptually

He is very tough against adjacent attacks (no more than 1 wound), but loses a shield on non-adjacent attacks.

You may be correct however that it might be an attempt to add too much them, thereby becoming clunky.

The big question is then, do you just increase the base defense? Keep the strength against adjacent attacks (thought about adding a d20 roll here but already had one with the other power)? Or, maybe add to the base but keep the weakness against non-adjacent attacks.

I am not married to the concept and am open to changing things around, but I thought it would be interesting to have a character that has trouble against someone like Hawkeye, but is very tough against melee figures like Hulk or Thing.

Tactically, you want to get him right into battle to negate the opposition. He is very much a support character, but opposite of typical support characters who you typically try to keep out of the action.

As for his ranged attack, I don't ever recall him having one other than his "pleasure center" thingie.

[badgermaniac]

Missed one...as to Thanos or other Eternals being immune to his OM removal powers. There are actually a number of groups that thematically should be immune. Basically, anyone that does not have a pleasure center in their brain should be immune. The obvious examples would be soulbourgs, androids, robots, etc.

I just didn't want to bog down the card with too much verbage, which is why I didn't go down that road.

One consideration would be losing the Eternal physiology ability totally and just boosting his base defense to 6 or 7 (or maybe just simplifying it to be only a boost against melee), thereby leaving some room to add some sort of mechanical expection to his "Lover" ability (though those can be tricky too).

[artemiscorso]

It has never been proven that Soulborgs don't have a pleasure center. How else could you explain that evil grin Q9 gets on his face right before he fires his queglix.
Anyhoo, I think upping Starfox's base defense might be the right answer here. He is an eternal, and therefore physically different, but thematically I'm not sure it's important enough to warrant a special power. I wouldn't worry about
making certain characters immune to Lover not a Fighter. There are pleny of Heroscape characters who should probably be immune to certain types of attacks, but for the sake of gameplay aren't. I would shy away from giving him a mind exchange power ala Doom's. This would allow him to make other people attack. This is not necessarily out of the realm of possibilities for Starfox, its just not how he usually does things. Since he can manipulate other's emotions and cause them to form an infatuation, what if he had a power that selected a certain Hero and made that Hero unable to attack Starfox for an extended period of time. I don't know, Lover not a Fighter already kind of does that, albeit for a shorter period of time.
I find it interesting that Starfox generated some strong negative vibes. Anytime you have a character linked to anything as disgusting as sexual assault(though I don't believe the writers intended to portray him as a serial rapist) it makes that character hard to like, or even to think about. But it also does something I think Marvel has done pretty well with a lot of their characters. It makes him human(even though he's technically an eternal). Not to say that it makes someone more human to sexually assault someone, just that Starfox has real and serious flaws, issues that make him deeper than a chiseled chin and tights.

[Hidicul]

Well there's two ways you can go with his EP power. You can raise his base defense and leave the -1 against range, or you could lower is defense and keep the one shield blocks all but one wound. I probably would go with option one over two in any case since I can't think of a time I would drop defense for the sake of a power. So I'm thinking raise his defense by one or two. I really don't think that it would effect his cost at all for the raise.

[badgermaniac]

Originally Posted by artemiscorso

But it also does something I think Marvel has done pretty well with a lot of their characters. It makes him human(even though he's technically an eternal). Not to say that it makes someone more human to sexually assault someone, just that Starfox has real and serious flaws, issues that make him deeper than a chiseled chin and tights.

For the record, I didn't like the character ever before his "little incident".

Your general point is right on the money of course, and one of the reasons that Marvel was so far ahead of DC (at least at one time). The X-Men were a big breakthrough in this regard.

Since we have the discussion on Yellow Jacket below, it is also interesting to see how certain things stick. Pym has been in probably 400 issues, and that one action (hitting Jan) in basically one issue has defined him with many fans. That is fine and adds some humanity to him, but I think it is fascinating to see what sticks. Many characters have been written many different ways, sometimes very poorly, but few remember the exceptions.

Anyway, I will update Starfox's card when I get home.

[badgermaniac]

OK, here is a revised card. I tweaked quite a few things.

Spoiler Alert!

• Raised base defense to 6 and eliminated the wordy "no more than one wound" power.
• Eliminated the weakness to ranged attacks.
• Instead I chose to focus on his Eternal healing power. I don't recall seeing anyone try this version (but I could be wrong). Basically, it is modeled after Counter Strike, but in this case, if he rolls excess shields, he can remove a wound marker instead of putting wounds on the opponent.
• For the "Lover" power, I changed it from ALL OMs to one OM, but for each successful removal, he can keep rolling (against the same figure) as long as he is successful and there are OMs to remove. This de-powers it down a tad.

EDIT: One more I missed. I also changed the Lover power so that it was used AFTER moving. This allows him to move to use the power, which I think it more thematic and mechanically sound.

[Hidicul]

Wow Badger I think I need a fig of him now I really like all the changes you did to him, but I really like his eternal regeneration power. Also the revamp on LNoF takes care of my thoughts of a little to much. Nicely done Now I know why I check your cards for ideas when makeing mine

[badgermaniac]

Thanks. I like him much better too. It is amazing what happens when others give you some things to think about (especially on a card that I probably wouldn't have ever given a serious critical eye to).

[Aldin]

Eternal Regeneration is impressive - I like the concept, though I'm a bit concerned over the implementation. Statistically, ER means that he can never be killed by anything with less than five attack dice and that attacking him with less than four heals rather than harms him. Basically, he's immune to squads and most low to mid level heroes. Was that the intent? If so, I think he should probably cost a lot more. Dropping his defense to 4 would make him vulnerable to anything that throws 3 or more attack dice while still leaving him healing on average from attacks by one or two dice.

~Aldin, who thinks ER would be an interesting way to implement Wolverine

[badgermaniac]

I see your point, and yes, some of that was intent (being more or less immortal, much like his brother Thanos).

You can certainly attack him with a low-level attack, but yes, it can be risky. If you are "weak", you need to get some lucky rolls against him to prevent healing. This is obviously true of anyone with high defense values (minus the healing part of course).

I would be certainly willing to drop his base defense to 5 (at least) if it makes him play smoother.

The 220 cost was left over from the initial version and has not been adjusted yet. I figured I would finish the concept first and then recost.