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  #49  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:24 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

My first instinct is 30 minimum. This is basically the defensive mirror image of the Weapon of Destiny situation, where I argued strongly that the spell was being vastly undervalued. Being able to disrupt an attack with perfect OM efficiency is a Very Good Thing.

The only thing that gives me some pause here is that its use is mostly limited to figures that have Magical Defense, who have much less use for this sort of power. Still, I'm unsurprised if results are coming in strong.
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  #50  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:38 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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My first instinct is 30 minimum. This is basically the defensive mirror image of the Weapon of Destiny situation, where I argued strongly that the spell was being vastly undervalued. Being able to disrupt an attack with perfect OM efficiency is a Very Good Thing.

The only thing that gives me some pause here is that its use is mostly limited to figures that have Magical Defense, who have much less use for this sort of power. Still, I'm unsurprised if results are coming in strong.
Not a single person who actually tested it felt it should be anywhere near that, and one person ( @All Your Pie ) thought that 25 was far too steep. 25 is the highest I would go here.


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  #51  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:43 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

I could write a long post, but honestly, just read the Weapon of Destiny stuff. It's very hard to discern the value of a small spell buried in a big test, and I don't put a ton of stock in estimates of testers, especially after they have been "primed" to base their guess off of the listed price.

If it saves 1 wound on a 300 point figure, it just earned ~50 points. A good analysis would be to examine the actual effect the spell had.
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  #52  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:50 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Not a single person who actually tested it felt it should be anywhere near that, and one person ( @All Your Pie ) thought that 25 was far too steep. 25 is the highest I would go here.
I don't think that's accurate. Arkham and YK don't seem to have a problem with 25, looking at their playtesting reports, and I find 30 pretty plausible.

It didn't set off any red flags for me at 15 in my games, but it did still feel pretty strong, and I don't know that those two games are enough to really say that it's fine at 15. My ability to assess value isn't so finely honed that I'm going to notice something over-performing by a Skrull Infiltrator and a half over the course of two games.

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  #53  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:53 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

I certainly didn't feel strongly enough about my opinion to argue with the CRB board over it. My main points were that the spell does not guarantee a wound prevented, since Magical Defense figures simply don't have defense values greater than 5 that I know of, and it doesn't function against special attacks. Since it's not a proactive spell (preventing a wound versus healing it), your opponent has a certain amount of control over when it activates.

But again, I don't have remotely the experience that anyone on the CRB does, so costing this spell at 15 points isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I did only have two games with it, and it's quite possible that it simply underperformed for me, or that I used it poorly.
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  #54  
Old May 15th, 2017, 10:53 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

It should be noted though that the only person who actually had an issue with its cost when testing thought it was overpriced - plus, I'll bring up the same argument I did with Weapon of Destiny by saying that you're assuming it will actually successfully help you - like with WoD, there's the chance you'll cast the spell and the rolls will mean it had no effect, either because you'd have defended anyway or it doesn't stop you from taking a wound, and since you're a magic wielder you don't usually even get to say it meant you took fewer wounds if you took one - it'd only be one anyway.


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  #55  
Old May 15th, 2017, 11:06 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
It should be noted though that the only person who actually had an issue with it's cost when testing thought it was overpriced - plus, I'll bring up the same argument I did with Weapon of Destiny by saying that you're assuming it will actually successfully help you - like with WoD, there's the chance you'll cast the spell and the rolls will mean it had no effect, either because you'd have defended anyway or it doesn't stop you from taking a wound, and since you're a magic wielder you don't usually even get to say it meant you took fewer wounds if you took one - it'd only be one anyway.
Looking at the tests, it seems like AYP just had exceptionally bad luck with it. I'm seeing three instances of someone casting Mesmerize and then taking damage anyway. Two of those in AYP's games.

And no-one's assuming anything. Literally every unit in the game has some chance of doing nothing for you. They should still be costed based on a realistic analysis of what they can do for you and how likely they are to do it.

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  #56  
Old May 15th, 2017, 11:08 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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It should be noted though that the only person who actually had an issue with it's cost when testing thought it was overpriced - plus, I'll bring up the same argument I did with Weapon of Destiny by saying that you're assuming it will actually successfully help you - like with WoD, there's the chance you'll cast the spell and the rolls will mean it had no effect, either because you'd have defended anyway or it doesn't stop you from taking a wound, and since you're a magic wielder you don't usually even get to say it meant you took fewer wounds if you took one - it'd only be one anyway.
Looking at the tests, it seems like AYP just had exceptionally bad luck with it. I'm seeing three instances of someone casting Mesmerize and then taking damage anyway. Two of those in AYP's games.

And no-one's assuming anything. Literally every unit in the game has some chance of doing nothing for you. They should still be costed based on a realistic analysis of what they can do for you and how likely they are to do it.
Would 25 be a reasonable compromise? Because that's what felt about right to me when I was first trying it, and no one else who tested really balked at that, save AYP.
Also, don't just consider the times someone used Mesmerise and still got hurt. There were several times in my games (at least one) where I used it, avoided damage, but would have done so anyway, had I used it or not. Hell, I'd even have still Hypnotised Hulkbuster in Mordo Test One, Sheet Two had I not used it.


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  #57  
Old May 15th, 2017, 11:14 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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, I'll bring up the same argument I did with Weapon of Destiny by saying that you're assuming it will actually successfully help you
I'm making no such assumption. It's probabilistic. If it saved exactly one wound every time (with no other posotive side effects, which saved wounds often have!) it would be worth about 50. I didn't say 50.
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  #58  
Old May 15th, 2017, 11:17 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
, I'll bring up the same argument I did with Weapon of Destiny by saying that you're assuming it will actually successfully help you
I'm making no such assumption. It's probabilistic. If it saved exactly one wound every time (with no other posotive side effects, which saved wounds often have!) it would be worth about 50. I didn't say 50.
Seriously, would splitting the difference at 25 be an issue? Because Mordo was not feeling OP in my tests, and I can see him starting to rack up to be extremely overpriced if we start pushing his spells up too far.


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  #59  
Old May 16th, 2017, 01:09 AM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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If it saves 1 wound on a 300 point figure, it just earned ~50 points. A good analysis would be to examine the actual effect the spell had.
And I still disagree very strongly with this way of measuring the value here, it is all kinds of wrong. I have played with and analyzed the effect it had on a game, I came to the conclusion that in the best case scenario it was worth 25 points. You aren't going to get the best case scenario out of it every time you draft it though, you might get the best case scenario out of it once every 3 times you draft it. I wouldn't want to see it priced over 20 points after having used it. Even when you do use it, it does not guarantee a block with the attacker still rolling at least 1 die. I whiff on def. all the time so 1 attack die can still result in a W. Any figure you use it on with 6+ att. dice is still rolling 3+ as well.

If we based all our cards on the best case scenario, Wolverine would be priced at around 560 points as I have certainly gone on a tear with him where he was unkillable and took down 560 points worth of figures all on his own. For every great game he has though, he also has a game where he whiffs on his first defense roll and dies without ever attacking anyone. You take the average of those two extremes and end up with a price of 280. That is how we have priced our cards from the very beginning, a value that represents what you can expect from an average performance fully aware that sometimes the card will overperform and other times it will underperform.
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  #60  
Old May 16th, 2017, 02:06 AM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

This is not pricing based on best case scenario, this is pricing based on expectation. The idea that the best case value of this spell is 25 points should be fairly obviously wrong. If it saves a single wound on a 300 point figure, that's 50 points. That's not taking into account the powerful synergy with Mordo, or the ability to be worth considerably more than that against a figure that can bypass Magical Defense.

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Seriously, would splitting the difference at 25 be an issue? Because Mordo was not feeling OP in my tests, and I can see him starting to rack up to be extremely overpriced if we start pushing his spells up too far.
I don't believe pricing-via-bargaining is standard C3G practice either.

I haven't analyzed Mordo, but if you were testing him with Mesmerize every time and felt he was balanced then it's possible you were assuming too many of the points lie in Mordo and not enough in Mesmerize. But honestly, 15-20 points is not too significant on a big figure anyway. (Which is probably why it was so easy to overlook the value of Mesmerize.)

Again, a good start would be an organized summary of what the actual effect of Mesmerize has been in past games.

Last edited by dok; May 16th, 2017 at 02:56 AM.
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