Earth Hour: 2008

[HyperLight]

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Seriously though, it always cracks me up that the people who believe we're killing the planet are generally the same people that believe in evolution...kind of a conflict of ideas, don't you think? Catastrophic event creates life and now a small portion of that life is going to kill off the rest through exceptionally slow and pathetic (comparitively) means? It's truly laughable.

Well our slow and pathetic means have wiped species into extinction, and pushed others to the brink of it. We've fished our oceans to be a fraction of what they used to be and if you've ever seen a sunny day in L.A we can talk about what we've done to the air. Doesn't seem all that slow now does it.

Your argument about volcanoes is correct, but what you fail to mention is that theres a natural order in the world where that is a regular occurance. But whats not natural is the millions of tons of waste that we dump into the air every year, which is not a part of the grand design and disrupts the natural balance of the world.

What I think is laughable is how religion has to be brought into a conversation that has nothing to do with it.

Hyper~

p.s - Darwin was right!

[Malechi]

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

It's a false assumption that those of us who argue against the hysteria of Man-Made Global Warming don't care about the environment. We simply don't see the "Sky is Falling -- Earth in Peril -- Doomsday" slant on man's impact on the planet via CO2...

Thank you.

[Malechi]

Originally Posted by HyperLight

... if you've ever seen a sunny day in L.A we can talk about what we've done to the air. Doesn't seem all that slow now does it....

Up until 4 years ago, I had lived in Los Angeles for the preceding 12 years ... I don't ever want to let the reality get in the way of your "facts" HyperLight, I had beautiful clean air every day I was there.

[HyperLight]

Originally Posted by Malechi

Up until 4 years ago, I had lived in Los Angeles for the preceding 12 years ... I don't ever want to let the reality get in the way of your "facts" HyperLight, I had beautiful clean air every day I was there.

I spend a month every year in Los Angeles on buisness and just form my experience I notice a difference in the air quality from my home town...Again this is just the perception of my surroundings, but I could turn on the rental car radio and flip through channels and listein to air quality reports..I will say that almost every major city (1.5 mil +) will usually have one now and I'm not trying to just single out L.A. Knowing that and realizing that this was not necessary all that long ago, I don't know how air quality in L.A or any other major center can be justified..And thats the fact.

I never wanted to focus this discussion just on air quality but the sad state our world really is in. It also bothers me that the point has been lost somewhere in here and remarks about nuclear warfare and religion are factored in, when the real question is wether we as the rulers of this planet passed a test yesterday. If this thread is any indication about how we did and are doing, than we have some work ahead of us.

C'est la vie.

Hyper~

[gamjuven]

I kinda feel bad, but during the hour of no light I was with some friends and we were making picture comics and needed more light so we ended up using more light than we usually do. We made up for it later by having all the lights off whenever we hanged out later. But we thought it was kinda funny that we ended up doing the exact opposite of what we're supposed to do (especially because we never use that many lights).

[Wind Lane]

Originally Posted by HyperLight

Well our slow and pathetic means have wiped species into extinction, and pushed others to the brink of it. We've fished our oceans to be a fraction of what they used to be and if you've ever seen a sunny day in L.A we can talk about what we've done to the air. Doesn't seem all that slow now does it.

Your argument about volcanoes is correct, but what you fail to mention is that theres a natural order in the world where that is a regular occurance. But whats not natural is the millions of tons of waste that we dump into the air every year, which is not a part of the grand design and disrupts the natural balance of the world.

What I think is laughable is how religion has to be brought into a conversation that has nothing to do with it.

Hyper~

p.s - Darwin was right!

I used to live just out side of L.A., and I can tell you, from having learned in my history class, that the L.A. area has always had bad air. The native americans who lead explorers and settlers to the place talked about its bad smell.

Also, an animal went extinct? Well, if you're religious the answer to that is that God allowed it to happen. The creature had served the measure of its creation and who are we to argue with God? Should we take care of what we've got? Yes. Should we do it as though we're beneath it? Hardly. Man was given dominion over all. God won't let us destroy anything we shouldn't before its time. He's all powerful and all knowing, so we're kind of out of our league in the whole "let's destroy the planet!" area.

If you're a science follower, and I'd guess you are by the Darwin comment, then it's natural selection and the creature is gone due to it's weakness and inability to adapt. And never forget that man is an animal. We are just the most capable animal on the planet. And by the laws of nature (strong survive, weak perish so that the species lives on), we're in our right. Again, it's in our best interest to keep ourselves in check, but why do we need homing pigeons, from a scientific point? If once it's dead, it's dead and that's it, then the only thing we have a responsibility to keep around is our own species.

Personally, I'm a religious logical thinking man. I believe that we are capable of doing wonderfully great things, but also terribly horrific things. We can make the world a better or worse place, for certain, but to believe we can destroy it? Give me a break. If mankind was bound and determined to do so, we'd end up blowing up quite a lot of surface, but the planet would be fine and would recover in full. Would it take some time? You bet, radiation can be troublesome like that. But there are even lifeforms that already exist that can handle radiation. Why wouldn't there be more after something like that? Nature is not pristine, unchanging beauty. It is a chaotic, destructive force that leaves beauty in its path. Did you know forest fires could last for years before mankind started putting them out? That's nature. Volcanoes can rain poisonous ash for miles and miles around that cause as much destruction of flora and fauna as pretty much any bomb? That's nature. Nature is not fragile. We are, we just adapt.

[HyperLight]

I didn't know that about L.A, and being educated outside of the U.S it wasn't required reading. I will say that I still don't see how relying on what civilizations said centuries ago about the smell has any revelance as a society today. (checks for loin cloth) As our history will show, we have made huge leaps and bounds in our level of technology that breeds industry which brings us to our current state and this discussion.

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Also, an animal went extinct? Well, if you're religious the answer to that is that God allowed it to happen. The creature had served the measure of its creation and who are we to argue with God?

I don't have that kind of blind faith... And I'm sure that the hunters taking down Bengal Tigers which are the pinacle predator in their natural enviroment and sadly have been taken to the literal brink by people you would probably call godless. They are hunted for the Asian market (not all Asians) who don't waste a fraction of their lives worrying about "your God" and worshiping their own, yet thay will naturally fall into what "your God" has designed for them because thats the only way it can work in religion...no competition, one voice not the many.

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Should we take care of what we've got? Yes

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Should we do it as though we're beneath it? Hardly. Man was given dominion over all. God won't let us destroy anything we shouldn't before its time. He's all powerful and all knowing, so we're kind of out of our league in the whole "let's destroy the planet!" area.

Again...Blind faith

How easily this can go from a debate about the enviroment that covers multiple religions of the planet and billions upon billions of people to a debate about religion, faith and divine intervention that only a fraction of the effected people in the grand world we live in actually believe.

I believe you bring up valid points Wind Lane, and I enjoy the healthy debate..I truly do.

"Let every individual and institution now think and act as a responsible trustee of Earth, seeking choices in ecology, economics and ethics that will provide a sustainable future, eliminate pollution, poverty and violence, awaken the wonder of life and foster peaceful progress in the human adventure."

— John McConnell, founder of International Earth Day

[Snotwalker 8000]

Originally Posted by HyperLight

How easily this can go from a debate about the enviroment that covers multiple religions of the planet and billions upon billions of people to a debate about religion, faith and divine intervention that only a fraction of the effected people in the grand world we live in actually believe.

~ 84% of the world's population believes in a God/Higher Power... so I'd say it's slightly more than a "fraction" of the effected people. But regardless of one's faith (either in Man-Made Global Warming, God, or both, or neither) we all want a clean, healthy environment... If we can all acknowledge that up front, these discussions remain more interesting and encouraging in regards to the exhange of ideas...

Originally Posted by HyperLight

I believe you bring up valid points Wind Lane, and I enjoy the healthy debate..I truly do.

That's always good to see! It's not always easy to maintain a healthy discussion/debate on a forum like this, as some have a tendancy to prefer easy "hit and run" tactics, without adding anything of constructive or intellectual substance.

I'm curious, what's your opinion on a specific solution to your environmental concerns? Obviously an hour of turning off a lightbulb is merely symbolic... what realistic, attainable, and non-destructive (economically-speaking) solution do you personally support?

Thanks HyperLight, and have a great day my fellow 'Scaper!!

SW8K

[guido]

I must say, I support global warming, being a member of the maritime industry. :P

[tyguy94920]

This is the most redundant argument I have read on these forums

No matter what we do to this enviroment we call EARTH it will survive, we cut down all the trees who will suffer

US

Adaptation will take place and will recreate itself

Franky, I do not care if humans wipe themselves out, size for size, we are the most pitiful animals on the planet

All we can do is THINK!!!

[guido]

Originally Posted by tyguy94920

Franky, I do not care it humans wipe themselves out, size for size, we are the most pitiful animals on the planet

All we can do is THINK!!!

Yeah, and it's not like thinking got us anywhere. Oh wait, it did.

What we really need is another super volcano to erupt, sending us into another ice age. Probably about half of us will die out, hopefully more. From what I gather, we're due for one big time.

[dracothehalfdragon]

Oh well, worlds gonna end anyway. lets all party it up.