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  #13  
Old June 15th, 2021, 01:34 AM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

The text transcription has some differences from the actual card:
Quote:
  • WALL WAVE OF FLAME
    Before moving normally with Avernus, and each time Avernus moves onto a space during normal movement, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to Avernus. If you roll a 14 or higher, that figure receives 1 wound. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Wall Wave of Flame. Avernus cannot roll for Wall Wave of Flame against the same figure more than once per turn.
  • LAVA RESISTANT
    Avernus never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and it does not have to stop on in molten lava spaces.
HOWEVER, regarding that last difference, I think the transcription text is actually correct and it's the card that isn't using the standard/best version of the text template. I assume the army card copied this text from Brunak, because he is the only other unit with this ability that uses the awkward preposition "in." Literally all other Lava Resistant figures (Fire Elemental, Iron Golem, Moltenclaw, Obsidian Guards, Shurrak) say they don't have to stop on molten lava spaces. (And since "on" makes more Heroscape grammar sense, in this case the majority is actually right.)


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  #14  
Old June 15th, 2021, 01:26 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

@Just_a_Bill good catch. I updated to WAVE of Flame. On the on/in you are probably right should be changed to later unit wording. Probably not worth a preprint it would be nice to have updated card.
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  #15  
Old January 20th, 2024, 04:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

So what happens if you move avernus to a space that he can't stop on and doesn't kill any units and can't continue moving? Is there an implied "must be on level ground" like with tor-kul-na?

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  #16  
Old January 20th, 2024, 09:43 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralRolando View Post
So what happens if you move avernus to a space that he can't stop on and doesn't kill any units and can't continue moving? Is there an implied "must be on level ground" like with tor-kul-na?
It’s a rule that any double spaced figure can not move into a spot that would prevent them from being able to end their movement on level ground. Avernus having the ability to kill figures during movement doesn’t bypass that rule.

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  #17  
Old January 20th, 2024, 11:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Quote:
Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralRolando View Post
So what happens if you move avernus to a space that he can't stop on and doesn't kill any units and can't continue moving? Is there an implied "must be on level ground" like with tor-kul-na?
It’s a rule that any double spaced figure can not move into a spot that would prevent them from being able to end their movement on level ground. Avernus having the ability to kill figures during movement doesn’t bypass that rule.

But what is "into a spot"? If a double spaced figure can't ever exist on two spaces that aren't level then they can't legally be played. In this special instance the figure could go into the proposed position and could keep moving if there is a clear space after wave of flame but couldn't reverse due to lack of movement to climb.


So all that being said, I totally understand if the ruling is that Avernus must be able to stop on the spot where he rolls for wall of flame like how tor kul na does for stomp. It is what it is but I think it makes the figure considerably worse under certain circumstances. but thats how it goes sometimes.

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  #18  
Old January 21st, 2024, 12:30 AM
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Re: The Book of Avernus



Pulled this photo from caps, here’s my understanding of the legal moves Avernus can do here (assuming he starts his turn in the position shown):

Avernus moves down from level 4 lava field onto level 2 swamp. Costs 1 move, still has 5 left, no problem. Assuming he gets no kills, he still can reverse onto level 4 lava field and safely end his movement on level ground. This down-and-up maneuver would only take 2 spaces of movement, because Avernus could switch his leading space after moving down, and move his “back end” along the level 4 which doesn’t cost extra movement.

But say you want to go further. One space down into the level 2 swamp, no kills, but you want the level 1 molten lava to engage a few more Varks. Still no problem.

1 move down onto level 2 swamp, 1 move down onto level 1 lava field. Switch leading spaces so you are counting from the level 2 swamp. 3 move up onto level 4 lava field, 1 more move even onto the other level 4 lava field. A total of 6 move, which Avernus has, so Avernus is indeed allowed to take the second forward space into molten lava.

Note that he could take the first step down and back up with only 2 movement on a drop of any size, he’d just potentially have to roll for falling.

If the lava field in this example was level 5, Avernus could not make the second move onto molten lava because there would be no guaranteed path to level ground.
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  #19  
Old January 21st, 2024, 10:24 AM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Also, from what I am hearing you asking, stomp must replace the figure killed where Avernus does not need to move onto the spot where the figure is burned up. If Avernus does not burn someone, he does not need to stop, but TKN must stop at that point so must already be on level ground.

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  #20  
Old January 21st, 2024, 11:53 AM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post


Pulled this photo from caps, here’s my understanding of the legal moves Avernus can do here (assuming he starts his turn in the position shown):

Avernus moves down from level 4 lava field onto level 2 swamp. Costs 1 move, still has 5 left, no problem. Assuming he gets no kills, he still can reverse onto level 4 lava field and safely end his movement on level ground. This down-and-up maneuver would only take 2 spaces of movement, because Avernus could switch his leading space after moving down, and move his “back end” along the level 4 which doesn’t cost extra movement.

But say you want to go further. One space down into the level 2 swamp, no kills, but you want the level 1 molten lava to engage a few more Varks. Still no problem.

1 move down onto level 2 swamp, 1 move down onto level 1 lava field. Switch leading spaces so you are counting from the level 2 swamp. 3 move up onto level 4 lava field, 1 more move even onto the other level 4 lava field. A total of 6 move, which Avernus has, so Avernus is indeed allowed to take the second forward space into molten lava.

Note that he could take the first step down and back up with only 2 movement on a drop of any size, he’d just potentially have to roll for falling.

If the lava field in this example was level 5, Avernus could not make the second move onto molten lava because there would be no guaranteed path to level ground.
I checked the build instructions for this map and Avernus’ initial position is indeed level 5, not 4, so he cannot move 2 spaces forward here, just 1. Sorry for misreading the photo.
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  #21  
Old January 21st, 2024, 10:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

I think I get the issue. Avernus is different from most other double-spaced figures because he can "attack" while moving normally.

Imagine Avernus was descending a staircase for his entire move. On space 5, he is on uneven ground and becomes engaged with an enemy unit. If he succeeds the roll, Avernus could then end his movement on the space the figure occupied (level ground), but if it fails, there is nowhere else that he can legally move to (like back up the stairs), and now the turn has ended on uneven ground.
Granted, this is an extreme example, but that photo above is a decently similar condition.

For a casual game, I would either have the entire turn "undone" so something legal can be played (not a second attempt) or just let Avernus end the turn on uneven ground just this once.
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  #22  
Old January 22nd, 2024, 02:23 AM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myriadite View Post
Imagine Avernus was descending a staircase for his entire move. On space 5, he is on uneven ground and becomes engaged with an enemy unit. If he succeeds the roll, Avernus could then end his movement on the space the figure occupied (level ground), but if it fails, there is nowhere else that he can legally move to (like back up the stairs), and now the turn has ended on uneven ground.
Granted, this is an extreme example, but that photo above is a decently similar condition.
I think you're misunderstanding. To quote a post earlier in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
It’s a rule that any double spaced figure can not move into a spot that would prevent them from being able to end their movement on level ground. Avernus having the ability to kill figures during movement doesn’t bypass that rule.
In the example you're giving, Avernus would not be able to move onto 'space 5' in the first place, because there is a chance that by doing so, he would be forced to end his turn on an illegal space. If Wave of Flame worked 100% of the time, then yes, Avernus would be able to move onto space 5 (and would then have to move onto the space the opposing figure occupied with his final move). However, because there is a non-zero chance that by moving onto space 5, Avernus would be forced to end his movement on an illegal spot, the rules bar him from moving onto space 5 altogether.

Put it another way: if there is any possibility that by moving onto a specific space, a double-hex figure could be forced to end their turn on an illegal spot, then that figure is forbidden from moving onto that space. No matter how small the chance may be, if there is any probability of an ability such as Wave of Flame failing, the player is not allowed to move that figure onto a space where failure (and a subsequent forced illegal placement) might occur.

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  #23  
Old January 22nd, 2024, 05:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

We did not intend for Avernus to have to be on two level spaces to use Wave of Flame, but we did not think of this scenario. This is an interesting issue that I wish we had handled. We probably would have required Avernus to be on flat ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
Put it another way: if there is any possibility that by moving onto a specific space, a double-hex figure could be forced to end their turn on an illegal spot, then that figure is forbidden from moving onto that space. No matter how small the chance may be, if there is any probability of an ability such as Wave of Flame failing, the player is not allowed to move that figure onto a space where failure (and a subsequent forced illegal placement) might occur.
This is how this needs to be played. Avernus cannot be allowed to move onto uneven ground if there is a chance he could be forced to end his movement there.
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  #24  
Old January 22nd, 2024, 10:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Avernus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
.... if there is any possibility that by moving onto a specific space, a double-hex figure could be forced to end their turn on an illegal spot, then that figure is forbidden from moving onto that space.
This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the responses!
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