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  #25  
Old May 16th, 2020, 02:41 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
The size defense ability is waaaaaaay too limited. She has to work within the set. Special attack defense works better for me.

Are we settled on her theme as a dragon warrior?
I'm inclined to be okay with abilities that have more limited utility as long as they're thematic and don't contribute significantly to the figure's point value, both of which are qualifications that I think this ability would pass. Thematically, the size-defense ability makes much more sense to me in representing her as a dragon ally than some other ability that gave her an advantage against dragons (which would feel more like something I'd expect to see on an Icarian associated with the Nhah Scirh).

Also, so far out of 8 unit designs, 2 of them have relevant abilities with a size restriction (Dienekes and Ozuul), so I don't even think that her ability would be too limited just within the set. When drafting armies with just the master set, I think it would actually be fairly common for her to be facing at least one of them. Compare this to an ability which protected against ranged special attacks, which would currently have 0 utility in the set (even if the ability is still more generally useful outside the set, which in my opinion actually makes the problem worse).

My vote is for an Icarian warrior, but at this point I'd still be interested in hearing other ideas as well.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; May 16th, 2020 at 02:59 PM.
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  #26  
Old May 16th, 2020, 04:49 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.
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  #27  
Old May 16th, 2020, 05:28 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.
That's two more than the number of units that Grimnak's Orc Warrior Enhancement worked on in RotV (and it's already more useful than the Ukushisa Pride's Lava Resistance). I had a lot of fun playing with Grimnak and chomping units long before I bought any expansions, but he was also a not-so-subtle reminder that there were more units out there that I could really expand my game with.

The way I see it is that a secondary power with limited usage in this box is fine so long as it doesn't define the unit or make them unsatisfying without additional expansions. We should definitely avoid something as overt as Grimnak, but a power that gets even more interesting when expansions are thrown in is definitely something within the scope of a Master Set.

Now, we don't want a lot of powers like that, of course, and there's no telling what other opportunities will present themselves for the remaining units that we have to design (conversely, we don't know if any other characters will end up using small/medium restrictions). I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.
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  #28  
Old May 16th, 2020, 06:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.
That's two more than the number of units that Grimnak's Orc Warrior Enhancement worked on in RotV (and it's already more useful than the Ukushisa Pride's Lava Resistance). I had a lot of fun playing with Grimnak and chomping units long before I bought any expansions, but he was also a not-so-subtle reminder that there were more units out there that I could really expand my game with.

The way I see it is that a secondary power with limited usage in this box is fine so long as it doesn't define the unit or make them unsatisfying without additional expansions. We should definitely avoid something as overt as Grimnak, but a power that gets even more interesting when expansions are thrown in is definitely something within the scope of a Master Set.

Now, we don't want a lot of powers like that, of course, and there's no telling what other opportunities will present themselves for the remaining units that we have to design (conversely, we don't know if any other characters will end up using small/medium restrictions). I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.
I agree. For me, the big reason why I think the limited usage could be justified in this case is that the size-based immunity doesn't define the unit and isn't contributing significantly to the figure's point cost (this would also apply to Lava Resistant as well, or the original Drake's Grapple Gun which was also only marginally useful 90% of the time). As long as a figure is still likely to be worth their points regardless of whether or not a specific ability activates, then I think a case can be made for including that ability as long as it supports other aspects of the design, in this case the theme. I do also think that adding another unit besides Ozuul that is able to play around Deineke's ability is a good thing for the Master Set meta as a whole.

Also, I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the utility of Katryn's power and Ozuul or Deineke's power. I was just trying to point out that Katryn's power would already work against 1/4 of the units that have been designed so far, which within the context of the set would be more useful than an ability that made her untargetable by non-adjacent special attacks, which would currently have 0 utility (and contribute more to her point cost).

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; May 16th, 2020 at 07:32 PM.
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  #29  
Old May 17th, 2020, 05:00 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

I'm just not a big fan of size changing as a mechanic in classic Heroscape, especially in a Master Set. Comparing to the "theme" of Drake's katana is not doing it any favors in my book, either.


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  #30  
Old May 17th, 2020, 05:20 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post

Quote:
DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.
I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.
He was talking about this alternate power being a callback to Drake
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  #31  
Old May 17th, 2020, 06:48 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

How many "choose a target" SAs are there? Astro's arguments RE: Grimnak has persuaded me down, but I still think if we go the SA route it's worth considering. Could also jsut give her an autoshield vs SAs.
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  #32  
Old May 17th, 2020, 11:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
How many "choose a target" SAs are there? Astro's arguments RE: Grimnak has persuaded me down, but I still think if we go the SA route it's worth considering. Could also jsut give her an autoshield vs SAs.
I was under the impression that every normal or special attack implicitly required you to "choose a target" unless the attack specifically told you not to (ie. Fire Line or Pyria's attack). However, it's very possible that I could be mistaken about that. My intention was that it would work against basically all special attacks, but wouldn't prevent her from being caught in the area of effect of attacks like Explosion or Fire Line.

If we do settle on her theme as a loyal Icarian Dragon-worshiper, it would seem strange to me to give her an ability that made her more effective at fighting against dragons. Rolling an autoshield vs SAs seems very much like a signature characteristic of the Nhah Scirh as it represents their antagonism toward dragons, which I think is the opposite of the theme we're currently exploring for this unit. That's not to say that we shouldn't explore a different thematic direction for the figure; just that the resistance to SAs seems a little at odds with the current direction and justification for her Majestic Inferno ability.
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  #33  
Old May 17th, 2020, 11:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

That's fair, you're right about that RE: theme of her being a dragon server.
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  #34  
Old May 18th, 2020, 06:05 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

If you're giving her the adjacent-explosion attack I don't think you need to make the other power also have to do with the blade.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #35  
Old May 18th, 2020, 07:15 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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If you're giving her the adjacent-explosion attack I don't think you need to make the other power also have to do with the blade.
I agree. Since Majestic Inferno SA doesn't directly reference her sword, I think that using another power to give a specific name to her weapon as the "Dragonheart Blade" is a nice thematic touch, but by no means necessary. So far though, I don't think I've seen any other suggestions for a second power other than Necroblade's proposed resistance to huge figures? To me that seems a little unthematic because I don't see why an ally of dragons would have an ability that makes her more effective at fighting against dragons, but I'm definitely open to exploring more options for her second power.
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  #36  
Old May 19th, 2020, 03:53 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Could a renamed Fanatical Advance be appropriate here?

Dragon Warrior
Nahiri never receives leaving engagement attacks from squad figures.

It gives her a little extra trick to pull off bigger explosive swords swings. We can always name the sword in the bio, and the special attack is very clearly a nod to the sword (unlike Thorian Speed).

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