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  #85  
Old June 6th, 2017, 12:30 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
It is just as simple as the other approach; arguably more simple.
I disagree. It adds another step at the start of the game when you have multiple spellcasters, and it adds another thing to keep track of throughout the game. Especially in larger games, having to keep separate piles to keep track of which figures have which spells is much more complicated then a single pile they all use.

This is especially true for your opponent. Trying to memorize not only which spells your opponent has and which ones have or haven't been used, but also which ones are attached to which spellcasters could be very overwhelming. The last thing we want is casual players feeling at a disadvantage because their opponent brought a spell-heavy army.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Thematically I struggle to justify why a bunch of figures are sharing the (expendable, temporary) ability to cast a spell. I was not alone in this.
I find theme has issues both ways, but the current approach allows for thematic army building that the suggested change would remove.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
  • There are serious gameplay and balance issues that can come out of "commonizing" a unique spell by allowing it to be cast by multiple figures in multiple positions on the map. It reduces the risk of buying a high-cost spell and it multiplies the threat that spell presents before it is cast.
  • Related to the above point, giving all future spells the ability to spread out over multiple casters restricts the future design space, making it harder to balance situationally powerful spells.

I really think we should try to be conservative in setting up these rules. Even more than the E-glyph or other rules that C3G has introduced, this is a serious alteration to gameplay, and we should be aiming for a light touch. Spells should be a cool add-on, and a big part of future magic figures, but they shouldn't be the gate to minmaxing or something you need to have in the bag in a competitive army.
Actually, this is part of the reason I like the common pool, because it forces us to cost unique spells a little higher. What this means is that in spell/spell-caster heavy games they'll be very useful, but will feel slightly over costed in a more regular game. This keeps people from tossing in select powerful spells and having them have a large impact. If anything, this pushes spells farther into the additional rule/not overwhelming niche, which I agree is important.

That's my .

Seems like we should really just put this to a poll though.

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  #86  
Old June 6th, 2017, 12:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
Unique Spells - one card per army attached to one figure (once per game Level of Spells)
Uncommon Spells - Multiple per army but only one per figure (Once per Figure Level of Spells)
Common Spells - Multiple per army not attached to any figures. (Go Nuts Spells, fill your point total)
That does make for a nice echo of the existing Common/Unique/Uncommon mechanics.
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  #87  
Old June 6th, 2017, 12:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viegon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
It is just as simple as the other approach; arguably more simple.
I disagree. It adds another step at the start of the game when you have multiple spellcasters, and it adds another thing to keep track of throughout the game. Especially in larger games, having to keep separate piles to keep track of which figures have which spells is much more complicated then a single pile they all use.

This is especially true for your opponent. Trying to memorize not only which spells your opponent has and which ones have or haven't been used, but also which ones are attached to which spellcasters could be very overwhelming. The last thing we want is casual players feeling at a disadvantage because their opponent brought a spell-heavy army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Thematically I struggle to justify why a bunch of figures are sharing the (expendable, temporary) ability to cast a spell. I was not alone in this.
I find theme has issues both ways, but the current approach allows for thematic army building that the suggested change would remove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
  • There are serious gameplay and balance issues that can come out of "commonizing" a unique spell by allowing it to be cast by multiple figures in multiple positions on the map. It reduces the risk of buying a high-cost spell and it multiplies the threat that spell presents before it is cast.
  • Related to the above point, giving all future spells the ability to spread out over multiple casters restricts the future design space, making it harder to balance situationally powerful spells.

I really think we should try to be conservative in setting up these rules. Even more than the E-glyph or other rules that C3G has introduced, this is a serious alteration to gameplay, and we should be aiming for a light touch. Spells should be a cool add-on, and a big part of future magic figures, but they shouldn't be the gate to minmaxing or something you need to have in the bag in a competitive army.
Actually, this is part of the reason I like the common pool, because it forces us to cost unique spells a little higher. What this means is that in spell/spell-caster heavy games they'll be very useful, but will feel slightly over costed in a more regular game.
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  #88  
Old June 25th, 2017, 01:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

I agree with Japes and dok here.

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  #89  
Old June 25th, 2017, 01:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

Yeah, that really brings the spells in line with known mechanics and overcomes some of the competitive concerns.

I guess the question is, does this change established costs of spells?
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  #90  
Old July 16th, 2017, 04:06 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

@Arkham @johnny139

Thoughts on the restrictions being discussed here? Think all the other Heroes have chimed in one way or the other, without much of a consensus.

Second issue: I asked about spells being negated a while ago, and YK's response was that spells shouldn't be able to be negated once cast, even though they count as special powers on the casters' cards. Are people on board with that? If so, I'd think we should spell that out in the rules here. That's the only other mechanical issue I'm seeing that really needs sorting out.
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  #91  
Old July 16th, 2017, 05:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

I'm fine either way. Though it does feel a bit odd to test them all out in one fashion, appointing point values to them(some slightly over costed to be safe), only to change the approach at the last minute. Balance wise, it certainly makes the spells more of a risk, as drafting x amount of spells tied to a single caster makes that caster priority #1 for your opponent to eliminate, potentially making them all go to waste. Which in turn makes the caster rush to use them quicker. So it certainly nerfs the versatility of the spells and raises the risk of drafting them.

Ultimately I'm fine with which direction we take, but if we do tie them to a single caster, one would think the point values should be reconsidered, IMO.

For simplicity sake though, the way it currently is, the pool method, seems simpler to follow/keep track of.
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  #92  
Old July 16th, 2017, 05:48 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

What is the current count for Common vs unique spells that we have ready for release.
Any of the Common Spells would remain as is since Common Spells still go to the common pool.

I also don't see a huge shift in points as most of them were tested with a single caster anyway. It could also get balanced out because some of those could become unCommon instead of Unique so you could draft more than one if you have more than one caster and though you have to pay twice the chance of using them at least once goes up and you could get more than one in. Risk/Reward but some of those spells had potential to impact a game more than their point value.
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  #93  
Old July 17th, 2017, 08:58 AM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

I see the arguments for both sides here - risk/reward, complexity, theme, and so on. I don't think either argument is airtight and we'd be making sacrifices either way, with my thinking being that gameplay comes first and the simplest option (one big spell pool) is best.

But I haven't played with spells yet and can't speak to the balance or real world application, so I can't really come down strongly.
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  #94  
Old July 17th, 2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

I will echo johnny here.

My suggestion would be to poll the folks who have playtested spells to give their opinions.
Then we will all be a little more informed.
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  #95  
Old July 23rd, 2017, 04:42 PM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I will echo johnny here.

My suggestion would be to poll the folks who have playtested spells to give their opinions.
Then we will all be a little more informed.
All the testers but two are already in here and have weighed in, I believe. Doesn't seem to me like there's enough of a consensus (or anywhere close) to make any big changes. I think the potential for the shared pool of spells to pump up the value of some spells is just something we're going to have to keep an eye on going forward, particularly for high-end spells.

Reposting this as the main thing that needs resolution before we can release the spell rules:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Second issue: I asked about spells being negated a while ago, and YK's response was that spells shouldn't be able to be negated once cast, even though they count as special powers on the casters' cards. Are people on board with that? If so, I'd think we should spell that out in the rules here. That's the only other mechanical issue I'm seeing that really needs sorting out.
Do people agree with wanting the spells to work that way? If so, we should probably amend the second paragraph of the second section. Something like, but not necessarily this:

Quote:
When casting a Spell, you must declare which Spell you are casting and which figure you control is casting that Spell (remember, only figures with the Magical Defense special power can cast Spells). When a Spell refers to "this figure", it is referring to the figure casting the Spell. When a figure casts a Spell, you must resolve the entire effect of the Spell. During that use the Spell is considered a special power on the card of the figure casting it except that a Spell, once cast, cannot be negated by any means. When using a Spell that has a Special Attack, that Special Attack is used instead of the casting figure's normal attack and it follows all standard Special Attack rules. Immediately after resolving the effects of a Spell, it is removed from the game, unless otherwise specified by a special power or rule.
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  #96  
Old July 24th, 2017, 11:09 AM
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Re: The Book of Spell Rules

That seems like an odd ruling to me. If Doc Fate gets negated by Zatanna, seems like the Vapors of Valtorr he cast that round should also be negated.

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