Ken Burns' Vietnam

[Hahma]

I have only gotten through the first 3 episodes so far. Very informative.

I hadn't realized how corrupt the South Vietnamese government was. Nor how the Catholic leadership had screwed over the Buddhists.

Seems like the north was just wanting a unified country free of outsiders (French, Japanese, American). I can't really blame them for that.

Interesting how that one Vietnamese guy said that when we would try to find VC in a village and then shoot villagers that ran, that if you killed the right one, they would only be replaced, but if you killed the wrong one (which happened mostly) we created 10 more VC.

[Tornado]

So much for 'hearts and minds'.

I think one of my favorite quotes was something like "We were the last generation that believed our government would never lie to us."

[chas]

I have seen the first half so far, as broadcast--5 episodes. I see that they are rerunning this Sat. and Sun. afternoons, and then will begin once again on Sunday evening to run the second half, one 1 1/2 hour episode each evening.

Because of the divisions in the country, anyone who lived through this time was traumatized to some degree, even if they did not serve. in those days, everybody else you met was in your face, wanting to know if you were on their side or not--either politically right or left. It was the opposite of the cloud of silence that descended afterward. Having to admit that we'd actually lost a war completed the process, shutting down everyone from wanting to deal with it. Just dump the helicopters overboard and forget about it.

[Tornado]

What about Korea? We got humiliated in that one. Did we proclaim victory after defeat?

I really need to ask my parents about their experiences during the 60s. They never really ever discuss that time period. I believe my father was spared from the draft on a college deferment. Did they factor in if you had a family?

[Hahma]

We weren't humiliated in Korea. We stopped the invading North Koreans and that was the goal, not to conquer the country.

In Vietnam, the north won and the whole country was unified as a communist country. Interestingly, them becoming communist didn't mean the end of the world for us.

Also, Korea was more of a conventional war, something we were used to from WWII. Vietnam was a totally different animal and wasn't going be fought in anyway we were used to. Reminds me of in WWI when the generals thought they could charge in with cavalry, but got chewed up by machine guns.

[chas]

In those days, especially before the rift between the USSR and The People's Republic of China, it was believed that Communism was monolithic. Earlier, before and during WWII it more or less was, with even US Communists taking their orders direct from Moscow Central!

To seemingly reinforce that, our experience in China was that that huge nation, as large as the USA, had a civil war just after WWII and "went Red." This set off a hunt against supposed 'soft' officials in our own US government who supposedly "lost China"--as if it was ours to lose. See McCarthyism. See also the recently broadcast PBS 6 hour series The Story of China. China was Vietnam writ large, since it had been exploited by the Western Powers, had an earlier nineteenth century civil war (The Taiping Rebellion, which made our own American Civil War look like a social tea dance) and then was invaded by Japan, who took over all of coastal China during WWII. Luckily, we decided to stay out when the government there we had backed lost the later civil war. (We did intervene militarily, with the major European Powers and Japan, in Russia itself after its 1917 Revolution. They kicked us all out).

The Domino Theory noted in the film said that if you let one small nation fall to Communism, the nefarious Russian backed Party would just then go after its neighbors. And that was their stated ideology! It totally ignored what was special about the feelings and actions of the people in each separate nation. When a young would-be US Army recruit in the film says "I hate the Reds," he's talking about the Soviet Communists, who were dastardly planning World Revolution everywhere at once. Well, they were, but they were not as omnipotent as they wanted to be, and could only control countries very close to them which they had occupied militarily during WWII, some of which had been allied with Nazi Germany.

During The Cold War, the USSR was seen as the Anti-America, just as in Star Trek the Borg are the Anti-Federation, looking to create unity by denying individuality. And we had the case of the enslaved nations of Eastern Europe, (the Warsaw Pact) to prove it!

Korea happened as it did because the Russians were busy boycotting the UN Security Council, a mistake they never made again. So we were free from their veto to create an International Police Force of our Allies to intervene there against the invasion of the South by North Korea. Then we beat them, moved all the way up to the Chinese border, and the Chinese came in against us. A lot of them. Ours troops were surprise attacked in subzero weather while eating turkey dinners. Happy Thanksgiving! Actually, we'd made the original goof, by making a speech defining our defense perimeter around the entire globe--and leaving the Korean peninsula out of it. For an amazing but very long book on the post war era that I read back in college, see the author who was US Secretary of State, Present At The Creation by Dean Acheson.

[chas]

Tornado,

As for your parents not discussing those years, see my Post #15 above.

Are they watching the show? You might learn some interesting things if you talked with them about it. Then again, you might not.

[Hahma]

Got started with the 5th episode last night and depending on when I get home tonight, I'll try to finish it up.

Despite the reasons for getting in the war and mindset toward communism at the time, the people in charge knew it was unwinnable and wasted so many lives on both sides out of pride. While people could have been mad at the protesters, the protesters were right. There's a difference IMO between being patriotic and being sheep.

I see some similarities now with regard to racial tensions. Just last night, Trump called Kapernick a sonofabitch for sitting during the National Anthem. I've read plenty of posts where people comment about how wrong Kapernick is and how if he and the others not standing don't like it here, they should leave. That's funny, because those same sentiments were expressed toward the protesters during Vietnam. They were called commies and not supporting America etc. There were also protests by blacks during Vietnam because they and poor whites were getting sent over to Vietnam while the white middle-class and above didn't, until Westmoreland kept requesting 100's of thousands more troops. Mohammad Ali had a great speech about how that his enemy was here, not over in Vietnam. When a group of people in a country are treated like crap by their own country and then asked to be patriotic and fight for that country against others that didn't do anything to them, then that certainly causes resentment. The Buddhists were treated like crap in South Vietnam, they resisted and that seems like part of why they never seemed unified against the north.

Again, I see some parallels in division in this country now, like there was during Vietnam. Certainly there are racial tensions...still. But there are a lot of tensions related to our President and his actions/behavior, as well as immigration, healthcare etc. Not to mention we have wars we can't seem to get out of and similar to Vietnam, it seems there is no "winning" in the traditional sense we know.

One thing that was really disturbing in the 3rd episode of the series I believe, was the memorandum or whatever that reasons for staying in Vietnam. 70% was to keep from being embarrassed. 20% was to stop Communism. 10% was to help the South Vietnamese.

[chas]

There were a lot of good slogans back then. One went something like this:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for men of good conscience to do nothing."

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by chas

Tornado,

Are they watching the show? You might learn some interesting things if you talked with them about it. Then again, you might not.

Not sure. I will suggest it.

Korea happened as it did because the Russians were busy boycotting the UN Security Council, a mistake they never made again. So we were free from their veto to create an International Police Force of our Allies to intervene there against the invasion of the South by North Korea. Then we beat them, moved all the way up to the Chinese border, and the Chinese came in against us. A lot of them. Ours troops were surprise attacked in subzero weather while eating turkey dinners. Happy Thanksgiving! Actually, we'd made the original goof, by making a speech defining our defense perimeter around the entire globe--and leaving the Korean peninsula out of it. For an amazing but very long book on the post war era that I read back in college, see the author who was US Secretary of State, Present At The Creation by Dean Acheson.

I am focusing on the end part there. As I understand it, we overextended our supply lines while the Chinese poured in all around, completely engulfing our troops, forcing them to retreat and fight their entire way back.

This is why I wish they had done a special on Korea. So we 'won' but then decided to establish an incredibly long military border?

[chas]

Tornado,

That's right, although this was only the third of four major 'beats' in the conflict. For this part of the Korean War, you can see the PBS program The Battle of Chosin (AMX62812). There are several books and old war movies on the Chosin Resevoir campaign, which was only part, but the most dramatic part, of the general retreat. I think is also a PBS DVD on the whole Korean War; you can check their website. The final military border or truce line negotiated, after the final beat when we reestablished a front, was just a short East-West line across the country, close to what had prevailed before the see saw Korean War began.

Interestingly enough, the Japanese had a similar experience during their samurai period when they invaded a Korea allied with Ming China. For the new board game on this see Far East War 1592.

[Tornado]

We are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.?

Thanks chas. I watched a special on China as well.
Centuries of history is a whole different perspective.