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  #325  
Old January 14th, 2014, 04:29 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

So let's take a bit of a side trip before we go to #3. Where do you find the condition of not causing harm in the definition of authority?

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  #326  
Old January 14th, 2014, 04:32 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Well, I guess it's less about whether he has that authority, and more about whether he should have it. If you cause harm to others, then you should have any authority you may have stripped from you - like a dictator, you're too dangerous with it. Therefore, conditions, even at their most basic, always need to be attached to authority.


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  #327  
Old January 14th, 2014, 04:36 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Lazy, Regarding sexual sin broadly, and homosexuality would be included in this, God created sexual intercourse as a beautiful gift and means of connection between men and women within marriage. He also clearly laid out that this was the only proper framework for this activity, and that sexual activity outside of this framework would bring harm to those involved. Being the creator and designer of those involved, as well as the designer of sex, he would know. As a result, all sexual activity that is undertaken outside of that framework is an act of rebellion against God, and essentially a rejection of his gift as "inadequate" and in need of further improvement on our parts. Not only are we saying we know better than God, we are also saying that we don't have to follow his rules and standards. This is really how all sexual sin works, but homosexuality is included in that.

It would be like if I gave my child a painstakingly designed self-made gift that would bring him incredible joy when used correctly, but if he tampered with the gift and used it incorrectly he would bring pain to himself and those around him. When I give him the gift, I clearly lay out to him how to use the gift correctly and the pleasure he will derive from it, but I also outline the consequences and harm that will occur if he tampers with it in certain ways and violates the safety instructions. If he takes the gift, and promptly tampers with it in the exact way that I told him not to, and warned him against, he is not only insulting me, the gift-giver, by saying "I don't like your gift the way it is", but he is also intentionally disobeying me and tampering with my gift in the exact way I told him not to and warned him about. I don't think it's hard to see how such blatant disobedience is a problem.

Like Crixus said earlier, if you don't believe in the Christian God, I'm probably not going to convince you that homosexuality is wrong, nor have I really been trying, you've been the one aggressively pursuing this issue. But if the Christian God exists, than it is definitely under his purview to set the standards regarding the gifts he gives his children, since he knows the most about the gift itself and about the children involved.

I am not a parent yet, but I think most parents have had to tell their child, "Because I told you so." at some point in their parenting careers. The child may not always accept it, but sometimes it's necessary. It's very hard to explain to a two-year old why they shouldn't play in the street. Sometimes "Because I told you so" has to do. I'm sure God faces an even bigger knowledge and understanding gap when dealing with us humans, considering he is omniscient, and we are extremely limited in how we perceive things.

As for compassion, God demonstrated his compassion on the cross by saying, "I know you broke my laws, and thumbed your nose at me and spat in my face, but I'll still take your punishment upon myself, because I love you." That shows significant compassion on his part.

EDIT: Lazy, to answer your earlier question about whether any of the Christians here have ever actually read the Bible, I have read through the entire Bible four times. In addition, I have copied the entire Bible out by hand once as a means of slowing down in my reading and processing things at a smaller level (genealogies could be a bit long at times). In the same vein, I have also typed the entire Bible out on a computer, (typewriter would have been too much work) as a means of processing it through my brain. I'm not trying to brag about this or put on my good Christian badge, I'm just trying to show you that yes, I have wrestled with the challenging and sometimes difficult passages, and my faith has been much the stronger for it. I haven't tried to bury my head in the sand and avoid the parts I don't understand.

~Anonymous, wishing he could get out of the way of LazyO and Aldin's much more structured, much more productive discussion.

Last edited by Anonymous; January 14th, 2014 at 04:55 PM.
  #328  
Old January 14th, 2014, 04:42 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Well, I guess it's less about whether he has that authority, and more about whether he should have it. If you cause harm to others, then you should have any authority you may have stripped from you - like a dictator, you're too dangerous with it. Therefore, conditions, even at their most basic, always need to be attached to authority.
I am sympathetic to the concept you're presenting here, but "should" is not logically valid. The question before us is not whether or not God should have authority, but whether or not He does have authority. Assuming, as always, the Christian God.

~Aldin, assumptioningly

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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  #329  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:09 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
Lazy, Regarding sexual sin broadly, and homosexuality would be included in this, God created sexual intercourse as a beautiful gift and means of connection between men and women within marriage. He also clearly laid out that this was the only proper framework for this activity, and that sexual activity outside of this framework would bring harm to those involved. Being the creator and designer of those involved, as well as the designer of sex, he would know. As a result, all sexual activity that is undertaken outside of that framework is an act of rebellion against God, and essentially a rejection of his gift as "inadequate" and in need of further improvement on our parts. Not only are we saying we know better than God, we are also saying that we don't have to follow his rules and standards. This is really how all sexual sin works, but homosexuality is included in that.
Why is that the only proper framework? Because he says so? That is when God, in my opinion, begins to be tyrannical.

Quote:
It would be like if I gave my child a painstakingly designed self-made gift that would bring him incredible joy when used correctly, but if he tampered with the gift and used it incorrectly he would bring pain to himself and those around him. When I give him the gift, I clearly lay out to him how to use the gift correctly and the pleasure he will derive from it, but I also outline the consequences and harm that will occur if he tampers with it in certain ways and violates the safety instructions. If he takes the gift, and promptly tampers with it in the exact way that I told him not to, and warned him against, he is not only insulting me, the gift-giver, by saying "I don't like your gift the way it is", but he is also intentionally disobeying me and tampering with my gift in the exact way I told him not to and warned him about. I don't think it's hard to see how such blatant disobedience is a problem.
Slightly different examples: violating the safety instructions on a gift would be more analogous to say, rape, for example, than gay sex, because it's actually hurting people.

However, if you gave your child (to bring it back to the essential point of this whole website) a D&D or Heroclix figure, and that child decides to use it to play Heroscape, because he prefers it, that would be more analogous to homosexuality, or to play both Heroscape and the game it was intended for, analogous to bisexuality. It still isn't hurting anyone, and that child is still enjoying the gift - he's just not using it as intended.

The analogy's far from perfect, but it works reasonably well, I think.

Quote:
Like Crixus said earlier, if you don't believe in the Christian God, I'm probably not going to convince you that homosexuality is wrong, nor have I really been trying, you've been the one aggressively pursuing this issue. But if the Christian God exists, than it is definitely under his purview to set the standards regarding the gifts he gives his children, since he knows the most about the gift itself and about the children involved.
No, he should say that you may not use it to hurt people (i.e. rape). If everyone's happy and no one's getting hurt, what the hell is God's problem?

Quote:
I am not a parent yet, but I think most parents have had to tell their child, "Because I told you so." at some point in their parenting careers. The child may not always accept it, but sometimes it's necessary. It's very hard to explain to a two-year old why they shouldn't play in the street. Sometimes "Because I told you so" has to do. I'm sure God faces an even bigger knowledge and understanding gap when dealing with us humans, considering he is omniscient, and we are extremely limited in how we perceive things.
We have a far greater grasp of logic than a toddler. He granted us logic, apparently - he should have more trust in his creations. The time comes when every parent has to let their child fly on their own, without imposing restrictions on it.

Quote:
As for compassion, God demonstrated his compassion on the cross by saying, "I know you broke my laws, and thumbed your nose at me and spat in my face, but I'll still take your punishment upon myself, because I love you." That shows significant compassion on his part.
Still not making sense to me - why does he have to get us to kill him before he can forgive us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Well, I guess it's less about whether he has that authority, and more about whether he should have it. If you cause harm to others, then you should have any authority you may have stripped from you - like a dictator, you're too dangerous with it. Therefore, conditions, even at their most basic, always need to be attached to authority.
I am sympathetic to the concept you're presenting here, but "should" is not logically valid. The question before us is not whether or not God should have authority, but whether or not He does have authority. Assuming, as always, the Christian God.

~Aldin, assumptioningly
Hmm... looking at the actual definition of authority that I posted, it is, uncomfortably, just power, so technically he still has it. However, 'should' is still important as no one should be allowed unconditional authority - just as a dictator such as Kim Jong Un should be stripped of his power, if possible, God, when he begins to overstep the mark, should be stripped of his power, if possible.

Once again, I return to this quote from Philip Pullman:

"I suppose technically, you'd have to put me down as an agnostic. But if there is a God, and he is as the Christians describe him, then he deserves to be put down and rebelled against".


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Last edited by Lazy Orang; January 14th, 2014 at 05:20 PM.
  #330  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:13 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

On the plus side Anon, Im certain those who do not know the contexts of the biblical verses will be more certain that your explanations of the ones LazyO posted and inquired about earlier to be more true or at least truthful.

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  #331  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:30 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
Realized I didn't quite understand the original article linked when I posted, so my post isn't really applicable after reading it a second time.
I dipped into the thread before you deleted and skimmed something that looked interesting about Francis of Assisi but didn't actually read it. If you want to repost even if it's not really applicable I'd still like to read it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I've been clicking on the link here now and again and reading the last post or two. Probably unwise.

Anyway, I just read this book review of The Experience of God, by David Bently Hart. Worth reading (the review, I mean, but I'll probably see if the library has the book next time I'm there).

Many here, it's clear from the posts, do go for the superhero god option which, I agree with the writer, is what most atheists find baffling as a belief. But there have been hints of the more interesting (to me at least) attitude to a monotheistic god described by the review writer (and maybe even some well thought out comments, as I said I've only been dipping in).
Thank you, Ollie, that's a very interesting article - I think that version of God (though at this stage I'm starting to feel as though it would be better described as a Force than a God) is probably more likely to exist than the superhero God version, though I still don't actually believe it, and sincerely doubt a Force like that would be quite as... opinionated as the Christian God.
I think the point is that it's not really a question of existence. Even Force might be a bit strong as a description, especially in a May-the-Force-be-with-you sort of way.

The conversations I've tended to have with religionists when we end up basically agreeing (Christians and Muslims mostly) end up exploring this avenue, and it becomes about the different ways of approaching the same tough existential questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang
Another good read for anyone interested in theology (whatever stand-point they come from, whether it backs up their views or challenges them) is the His Dark Materials trilogy of novels by Philip Pullman. You may end up basically agreeing with the author's sentiments, as I do, or you may not. If you do not, you may still find it theologically interesting. If you do not, you may still find it to be an enjoyable and extremely well written piece of fantasy escapism. I, for one, enjoy it on all three of those levels, and would give ringing recommendations of these books to just about anyone.
Yep, great books (although I'm less convinced they're great theology, I enjoy that bit too).

Two I've read recently(ish) that give some arguments, or at least stories, for the other side (if I thought the Christian God did exist, I'd look seriously into Satanism) are The Last Days by Andrew Masterson (Jesus didn't die and is now an Australian drug dealer) and I, Lucifer by Glen Duncan (Lucifer gets a crack at redemption via embodiment in writer Declan Gunn, but has some fun instead).

Again, don't go there for the theology, although it's not ludicrous in either case, or at least not more ludicrous than mainstream US theology.
  #332  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:34 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Well, Lazy, to summarize my earlier posts in this thread, sexual behavior, in the Christian view, is not a purely physical activity, it also carries with it emotional and spiritual consequences as well. God makes it clear that sexual sin has damaging emotional and spiritual effects on those who engage in it, so homosexuality, as with any other form of sexual immorality, does carry real dangers. It's not like playing Heroscape with DnD figures, it's like playing with electricity in a full bathtub spiritually speaking.

And I don't think it's a stretch to assert that there is a significant gap between our limited human knowledge, and God's omniscience. Even though we can reason, we are limited by the amount of information we have, and by the fact that the human brain is not perfect, and is often susceptible to logical imperfections. None of those limitations apply to God.

I already answered your question about why Christ's death was necessary. God is just. The consequences of sin, actions that violate God's moral law, is death. Because God is a just God, he must punish sin. If he allows sin to go unpunished, he undermines justice, undermines morality, and undermines his own authority.

The sacrifice must also be someone who is not guilty, in order for it to be a proper sacrifice. The reason Christ came to Earth and took on human form was to demonstrate to us how to live a perfect life, and in completely following all the laws, he was the only blameless sacrifice that could take our place.

Christ takes our punishment upon himself as a free sacrifice, if we choose to put our faith in him. In doing so, justice is satisfied because the sin has been punished, and we are no longer under a death sentence, because Christ has taken the punishment.

Most of these answers were basically rehashing of things I had already written earlier in the thread. Perhaps I'm not communicating them clearly enough. However, I think you might just find these answers unsatisfactory, and I kind of feel like we're just repeating ourselves over and over again. I feel like you and aldin are making much better progress in that regard.
  #333  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:38 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

I'll just say I enjoy the theological themes of HDM - remember, it is essentially just a fantasy novel. (Though personally I think the concepts of Dust, Daemons and other Worlds are just as believable as most religions - perhaps more so).

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you with the not-quite-a-force thing, Ollie - I'm not sure about it, but I'm honestly not convinced enough that it isn't something to argue it. Hey, agnostic, what can I say?


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Last edited by Lazy Orang; January 14th, 2014 at 05:44 PM.
  #334  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:43 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
Well, Lazy, to summarize my earlier posts in this thread, sexual behavior, in the Christian view, is not a purely physical activity, it also carries with it emotional and spiritual consequences as well. God makes it clear that sexual sin has damaging emotional and spiritual effects on those who engage in it, so homosexuality, as with any other form of sexual immorality, does carry real dangers. It's not like playing Heroscape with DnD figures, it's like playing with electricity in a full bathtub spiritually speaking.

And I don't think it's a stretch to assert that there is a significant gap between our limited human knowledge, and God's omniscience. Even though we can reason, we are limited by the amount of information we have, and by the fact that the human brain is not perfect, and is often susceptible to logical imperfections. None of those limitations apply to God.

I already answered your question about why Christ's death was necessary. God is just. The consequences of sin, actions that violate God's moral law, is death. Because God is a just God, he must punish sin. If he allows sin to go unpunished, he undermines justice, undermines morality, and undermines his own authority.

The sacrifice must also be someone who is not guilty, in order for it to be a proper sacrifice. The reason Christ came to Earth and took on human form was to demonstrate to us how to live a perfect life, and in completely following all the laws, he was the only blameless sacrifice that could take our place.

Christ takes our punishment upon himself as a free sacrifice, if we choose to put our faith in him. In doing so, justice is satisfied because the sin has been punished, and we are no longer under a death sentence, because Christ has taken the punishment.

Most of these answers were basically rehashing of things I had already written earlier in the thread. Perhaps I'm not communicating them clearly enough. However, I think you might just find these answers unsatisfactory, and I kind of feel like we're just repeating ourselves over and over again. I feel like you and aldin are making much better progress in that regard.
Most of that makes no sense to me. The only thing that makes the slightest bit of sense is sex being spiritual (which maybe it is, or maybe it isn't, or maybe under certain circumstances it can be, I don't know), and emotional (which it certainly can be - not that I've had personal experience, I'm only 15). In that case, why aren't those of the same gender allowed to bond in that emotional and spiritual way? Once again, we come back to 'because God says so', and that's not good enough.

Also, as I said before, there is evidence for sexuality being inbuilt - please, please look it up.


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  #335  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:48 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

LazyO,

So it sounds like we agree when assuming the Christian God that, technically, He has unlimited power and authority.

And the contention that no one should have unlimited power and authority and therefore God should be stripped of that power and authority.

What is the basis for your contention that no one should have unlimited power and authority?

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or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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  #336  
Old January 14th, 2014, 05:53 PM
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Re: Any other childfree people here?

Because it's too dangerous. If someone has unlimited power, they can do anything they want to people, unpunished. The idea of unlimited power and authority sticks in my throat a bit, but when it's unconditional as well, that's when the real problems start - unconditional total authority means that power can be abused as much as the guy with it wants, and no one can take it away.


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