Playtest Exchange

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by Ixe

<snip>

Very helpful, thanks! Wish I could rep you but evidently I've been giving out too much in your direction...

Definitely linking this in the main thread. Hopefully it stirs the troops a bit.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by JC McMinis

Here is one I would not mind help playtesting. This is my first attempt at an uncommon hero and I havent had a chance to playtest it.

Uncommon heroes are an interesting lot. The majority of the time, particularly with their introduction in D&D 'Scape, they really might as well have been unique heroes. It is not often that you will draft two Frost Giants in the same army, for instance. Occasionally, however, there are some instances where you might want two or more and can get away with it, particularly when their is a bonding option available. Looking at his left hand side, this bonding option with the Death Chasers of Thesk will certainly be important for testing. Otherwise the fact that Otonashi has a bonus to her attack against him is quite insignificant.

On the right hand side of the card, his main stats are identical to the very same bonding pulverizer, so we must see what we can take for granted their and what differences we need to test. His power differs from his bretheren, however, in lacking the powerful bonus of a Double
Attack and also the downside of Lumbering Bully. Instead he has Gang Attack, which further encourages drafting him with multiple Ogre Brutes and can elevate him to an attack of 6 against the attacked figure, a potent hero killer but challenging to set up with single activation heroes.

As far as testing him goes, he is a nigh strictly worse option than the Ogre Pulverizer without drafting multiples. Perhaps he gets a slight leg up against particularly defensive foes like the Warriors of Ashra, but largely we must draft multiple in order to see any sort of benefit. Furthermore, single activating Uncommon heroes where you have to juggle around order markers will prove a challenge, meaning the bulk of our tests should focus around playing them with the Death Chasers of Thesk. With at least two squads of the orcs and at least two Ogres in the army, we are looking at a minimum playable army of around 310 pts. In truth, we'd probably want more points still to try to round out the army with more squads, another ogre, and with other popular hero options like Me-Burq-Sa for range and Nerak for some added defense. With these sorts of armies, we are probably more realistically looking at 500+ to get something competitive going.

As far as the opponent is concerned, try them against the usual pods of competitive foes. The Death Chasers in general can do quite well punching through more elite squads with mid to high defense can slice down heroes in short order. The Ogre Brutes in particular would probably fair best trying to team up against an elite target, most likely meaning that you'll have to juggle your activations to keep them all within threat range. If facing an powerful foe like Jotun or Q9, you could first engage with one ogre and take an attack of 4, even taking engagement strikes in order to get there. On the next turn, you can activate another ogre to now get in a more damaging attack of 5 and even have an option for 6 on the third turn if need be. Similarly, the Deathchasers will have issues with opponents that can get multiple attacks and cut through them before they have a chance to wreak havoc. The ogres probably won't be as much help against the likes of frenzying vipers or the 8 squad figure activation of a Harbeque army if they are getting swarmed and only getting 1 attack a turn. Some Deathchaser builds can actually play more defensively, but finding room for Nerak, Raelin, and Me-Burq-Sa will be a challenge when drafting at least to ogre brutes.

In any case, these would be the zones in which to focus your testing. I would also consider trying them out in the Heat of Battle format which can be particularly friendly to the likes of the Death Chasers and melee bonding heroes like the Ogre Brutes. I hope this is helpful for getting started.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Dr. Weirdscaper

Agent Carr (version 2)



Enjoy.

Agent Carr is one of my favorite heroes. He has so much cool factor going for him. Unfortunately, despite all his whistles and bells, he's just not that powerful of a unit and lacks the survivability necessary to quite earn his keep. This upgrade is strictly speaking a stronger unit, with identical left and right hand sides of the card except costing a significant 60 pts higher. Phantom Walk remains as an update to two old powers while Sword of Reckoning stands as a 1 die upgrade on his melee attack, making him slightly more deadly once there. Pot Shot gives him a significant boost to his range attack and can allow him to run and gun more reliably to whittle down his foes before it is time for a Reckoning.

As far as army construction goes, Agent Carr would receive the movement bonus from Agent Skahen's Cover fire. The two already elevate you to a whopping 280 pts, however. Otherwise, with his abilities, it would be useful to test him within armies that are capable of keeping the attacks of him, like using Deathreavers, while Agent Carr can operate with impunity and ambush prime targets with his devastating attack. Otherwsie, it would be worth considering Agent Carr in dungeon crawl or Heroes only formats where only getting single activations is less painful. There he could use Potshot to full effect to try to outpace the enemy and wear them down from afar before charging in with his massive sword.

As far as opponents are concerned, ranged squads will undoubtedly prove an issue for him. Being able to cut him down from afar with only a single attack of 2 to answer to will be a bad match up for the agent. Similarly, the likes of Gladiatrons or even the Air Elemental can work to halt Agent Carr and limit him from hunting down priority targets. In typical formats, taking down a key figure will be one of his most valuable points. If he can manage to close the distance, few can stop him from taking a massive attack of 7 to the likes of Q9 and hopefully end the soulborg in a single swing. Agent Carr may then be quickly surrounded and killed after that, but you are coming out ahead as long as he takes down a higher point total or more integral figure. Even sacrificing Carr for taking out Raelin, who is half his cost, may be necessary to turn the tides of battle in your favor.

Ultimately, any test we do should focus on the fact that he has an additional attack or additional range. If we are limited to not take advantage of this, then he is functioning exactly like Agent Carr for 60 more points.

[Dr. Weirdscaper]

Thanky. (+rep)

Do you think I should have made the points lower, like maybe 140?

Keep in mind, when I was working on this, I didn't want this new version of Agent Carr to render the original obsolete. I wanted it to be an even trade off. Less points vs harder hitting Sword of Reckoning and the range boost.

[Ixe]

I had the chance to run a few games with Marshall. To put it most simply, he costs a lot.

Match 1: Lost

Spoiler Alert!

Map: Vestige by Dignan
Army 1: [Marshall, Warforged Soldiersx3, Siege] (540 pts)
Army 2: [Microcorp Troopersx3, Death Knights of Valkrillx3, Dumetef Guardx2, Skull Demon] (550 pts)
Remaining: 3 Death Knights of Valkrill, 5 Microcorp Troopers

I was hoping that the overall lower attacks from this army would give make the warforged be able to survive longer with their resolve, and that certainly did work. Unfortunately they were still so outnumbered that they eventually died out with 3 Death Knights and 5 Microcorp Troopers remaining.

I used Marshall almost every round (which was too often by the end), often giving him the first OM to advance Siege and the Warforged out quickly then overextending to do it again. Usually it was to advance the whole army and put them in striking distance, but sometimes he would allow some units to move a whopping 10 in a single turn. Later on, he started to lose line of sight and more and more of his men were tied down, beginning to waste his activations. He did manage to pick off a few units with overextending and his attack of 4 at the very least.

While the warforged were holding up well against low attack rolls of a single skull, they slowly began dropping off and just couldn't match the numbers they were facing and were not having the best luck pushing back on the attack, especially against the minions.

They used Siege quite often, but using him with Marshall is actually a bit more awkward than their initial synergy may suggest. While he can slingshot the hero 10 in a single turn, when do you do it? Do you go first with Siege and place him in his Crag of Steel? Moving him on OM 2 can bypass his movement penalty and tie down the enemy, but it won't be until OM 3 that you can actually get the attacks out of him and stops you from using the rest of your army that round. You could instead move him up first, but then you're not really negating the movement penalty and he's a bit more vulnerable when you get there. When you start getting close enough, you may have been better off just moving him yourself in the first place and getting his attack out of the deal.

Match 2: Devastating Loss

Spoiler Alert!

Map: Wampa Cavern by heroscaper2010 (removed the Wampas)
Army 1: [Marshall, Warforged Soldiersx4, Krav Maga] (600 pts)
Army 2: [Taelord, Minions of Utgarx3, Atlaga] (600 pts)
Remaining: [Taelord with 4 wounds, 5 Minions of Utgar, Atlaga with 0 wounds.]

I figured the high attack and high defense of the minions would prove trouble for the warforged, though I was curious to see if Marshall's mobilization could get them into position quickly enough to instead rely upon the Krav. While Marshall represented essentially two turns of moving soldiers in a single order marker, the ones he was moving were just not sturdy enough to provide a solid screen for the Krav Maga. The Krav even managed to have a full round of attacks from height against Taelord in shadow but couldn't manage to lay a scratch on the warrior despite rolling 2 and 3 skull attacks.

Marshall only survived for two rounds, again mobilizing the warforged en mass with overextend to get them in position quickly. This essentially allowed them to move up the Krav as well without being behind a squad that moved forward. The minions did the same, however, taking the first round to fly their entire army on to the safety of height and within striking distance of the enemy.

In the second round, Taelord moved into shadow to extend his aura while Marshall pounced, overextending two attacks of 4 into Taelord and moving his army up with him. The minions retaliated and laid some wounds into Marshall while easily carving through warforged. The soldiers repositioned a bit about the board but their attacks were largely ineffective against the minions. In turn, the kyrie executed Marshall and even began putting some pressure on the Krav, but they managed to clear them off without any losses.

It is worthwhile to note that while Marshall died in the second round, he may very well not have gone again anyway. The soldiers were largely more capable of dealing damage than Marshall, anyway, and overextending again with the hero was putting him into more and more dangerous territory against the likes of the Minions. Furthermore, the armies were already mingled enough together that his only worthwhile ability was essentially useless.

For the rest of the fight, the minions' defense remained nigh impenetrable and gave them an easy time of hacking through the remaining Krav and warforged soldiers.

While I wouldn't go as far to say that I have extensively tested him and really know what Marshall is all about, even a few tests like this can nevertheless help you gain a feel for the unit. I haven't tried all possible strategies so I can't say for certain, but my best guess is that Marshall is over-priced for a competitive environment.

Being able to move 6 warforged or move some individuals 10 spaces is not bad, it's a benefit that is most useful in the beginning of the game. As turns progress, it becomes more and more valuable to take turns with those warforged instead and get some more useful attacks rather than necessarily tie up OMs into Marshall.

There are definitely some match ups where charging in with a few warforged immediately or quickly claiming key glyphs can be more helpful, but this seems to be pretty match up and map dependent.

Again, things come back to his cost. Marshall is 180 pts. In order to make use of his power, you should really have at least 3 or 4 squads of Warforged and perhaps heroes to boot. This quickly places you in the range of some more expensive armies where you'd be facing more costly opponents, and opponent's armies at higher point totals are more likely to have either massed squads (which can likely win a war of attrition against the warforged) or more elite units (whose higher attacks more easily bypass warforged resolve).

I think he's interesting and provides a fun benefit, it's just a real challenge to have come together in a more competitive environment from what I can tell. I hope this is helpful.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Dr. Weirdscaper

Thanky. (+rep)

Do you think I should have made the points lower, like maybe 140?

Keep in mind, when I was working on this, I didn't want this new version of Agent Carr to render the original obsolete. I wanted it to be an even trade off. Less points vs harder hitting Sword of Reckoning and the range boost.

I don't exactly intend for this to be a work-shop thread, but I'd recommend using the remade Raelin and Sgt Drake as examples of second versions of heroes. Neither of them outclass their previous versions with their upgrades. It is by their nature of costing more that they behave and fit differently in different armies. For this particular case, I'd look at Sgt Drake 2.0. He is faster, tougher, has better maneuverability, and has a ranged special attack. He gets quite a few things for his 60 point upgrade while not necessarily "outclassing" the original since the original is so much cheaper.

Your Agent Carr upgrades, in contrast, are relatively minor for the same point increase. These changes probably wouldn't lead to such a large point swing, where we'd probably need to see some more speed and survivability at the very least to justify that (two things that Agent Carr probably needs to perform a bit better).

[William099]

Do you think that Marshall would have performed differently/better with a ranged option in his deployment pool?

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by William099

Do you think that Marshall would have performed differently/better with a ranged option in his deployment pool?

Any additional figures to the pool would probably help, and ranged would probably help even more. Still, I'd probably want to mostly advance my melee screen before bringing them up and, if they are ranged, I may rather use order markers on them instead to get attacks if my opponent's figures are close enough. Obviously we can imagine some additional units out there where 180 is about right for making it good, but I think that would still be pretty particular and conditional for that to happen.

I think he's cool, he just costs a lot.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Not sure if it's exactly what you're looking for, but BOOTCAMPS OF VALHALLA put together a card and playtesting has stalled a bit there:



So any input you can give would be helpful for sure.

Just got another couple games with the kobolds in.

Game 1:

Spoiler Alert!

The first one was with Ulfrid as their Master, drafting the Axegrinders with him to take some early turns and bond out. I put them against the Varkaanan Wolf pack to try to make the dwarves a little more potent, but they died rather quickly while not doing enough damage to the wolf pack. The kobolds only managed to kill a single Swiftfang before they were wiped out, though luck definitely wasn’t in their favor. It is hard to say how viable this strategy was, but essentially it took a bit too long for the kobolds to roll out and they weren’t offensively threatening enough against the generally strong defense of the Varkaanans when they did. Ulfrid ended up committing suicide in a string of bad luck against a Varkaanan Darkclaw, but they lost an order marker to him in the process and were wiped out before they could avenge their master.

Map: Shiver by Dignan
Army 1: Ulfrid Hornwrangler, Axegrinders of the Burning Forgex2, Kobolds of Idona Keepx5 [465 pts]
Army 2: Varkaanan Darkclaws, Varkaanan Swiftfangs, Varkaanan Quickblades, Varkaanan Greyspears, Kursus [465 pts]
Remaining: 3 Darkclaws, 2 Greyspears, 1 Swiftfang, 3 Quickblades, and Kursus with 0 wounds

The battle opened with the pack rolling out and Ulfrid and the Axegrinders coming out to meet them. The dwarves always used Ulfrid, hoping to get some early wounds on the warrior as they tried to wrack up kills. Their fearless advantage didn’t quite hold, although Ulfrid did manage to get two wounds on himself before the Kobolds began to go.

Swarming with 5 kobolds was okay, although the Varkaanans largely withstood all attacks they attempted. They switched to Ulfrid for the third round to try to wrack up more wounds or even destroy himself, which he succeeded but too early. They lost an order marker to him while the Darkclaws easily sliced through the clustered kobolds in their start zone and wiped them out.

Game 2:

Spoiler Alert!

The second game saw Raelin as the hero who protected the kobolds from the dreadgulls. The original goal was to self-wound Raelin and then eventually suicide her into lava, but the enemy closed too quickly and were attacking them right in their start zone. The self wound amounted to little and it was only Jotun’s Wild Swing that put her to 3 wounds for the most part. The giant finished her in the second round off a Wild Swing, enabling the kobolds to truly avenge their master and immediately take down the giant. All said they claimed the giant, guilty, and 5 dreadgulls for 363 points out of 270 drafted.

Map: The Hotways or the Highway by heroscaper2010
Army 1: Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Krav Maga, Kobolds of Idonna Keepx6. Isamu [460 pts]
Army 2: Dreadgullsx3, Jotun, Guilty McCreech [465 pts]
Remaining: 3 Kobolds, 1 Krav Maga

The battle had the dreadgulls claim initiative every round, moving out Jotun and getting a berserker charge to start attacking within the first round. This made Isamu’s order marker to attack Raelin a little inconvenient, who only managed to inflict one wound upon the warrior. Jotun was then able to crash into the start zone and begin his wild swinging, although he never managed to get off a throw. The kobolds were taking losses but were beginning to swarm and cut back on the dreadgulls as losses traded back and forth.

In the second round, Jotun finished Raelin with a Wild Swing and the Kobolds swiftly avenged their master and killed Jotun with their impressive attack boost. Guilty then began picking off kobolds, but the Dreadgulls just didn’t have the numbers to hold up against the equally potent Kobolds and even the Krav Maga joined the fray. The kobolds finished off the cowboy and it just became a matter of course for wiping up the remaining dreadgulls.

They're an interesting group. My second test didn't quite check the things that I would like, but I think they're strategy is fairly deep and has a few options.

Avenge the Master is a game changer and there is definitely a transition point where you want the master alive and wounded and just dead. However, there really is no point at which you want to kill the master right off the bat. With the cheapest warrior at 80 pts, doing a first turn suicide wouldn't be an effectively cheaper option than then similarly statted Death Chasers of Thesk until you have at least 9 squads of kobolds, becoming very unrealistic for any 24-hex limit format. In fact, I think the kobolds fair a bit better in slightly cheaper formats given their cost, allowing them to more easily swarm and overwhelm the opponent.

Overall, I like them and they seem about right if you use them correctly, though I suspect that will vary match to match and allow them to be fairly versatile. I hope this is helpful.

[johnny139]

That's awesome to hear! Glad to see they're playing well.

[Ixe]

You can find the Codex Playtest article for the Sacred Fusiliers by Northwest Heroscape Customs here.

I am taking submissions for my next article if any are interested.

[Porkins]

How about another group design? The first HoSS Public Design FX-7 has stalled a bit in testing and could use some help to get going.