The Importance of HeroScape

[Ormus]

Okay the smallest hex you can make of individual hexs has three on each side. I don't see another way to make a true "Chaos" map than to do it completely out of individual hex's and of course the finished product will have to be a hex shape also so we're talkin lot's of master sets here. Now trying to find a fractal design that will work with the whole. Don't worry Rev I haven't given up yet.

edit:I don't have VS at work, so I will post later with results.

[Revdyer]

That's great, Ormus.

It is the kind of thing I like to think about (and mentally play with) to take my mind off of work (not that difficult of a thing to do, sometimes! <grin>).

To be reiterative, of course, doesn't require that the final map be hexagonal. A symmetrical map is sort of reiterative. We've built "trimetrical" maps, too. That's fairly easy with hexes. But a map with symmetry on both the x and y axis is difficult with the current "right handed" (or left, take your pick) large pieces. It would be easier if you didn't use them or only paired them and used the resulting rectangles. Five sided symmetry is, I think, impossible with these pieces. Six sided, though, is quite possible.

(And before anyone asks, "Yes, I'm taking today off." I didn't get either a day off or the Memorial Day holiday last week, so I am comping today. <smile>)

[cycoduck]

And, with Ormus off for a few years figuring out chaos theory and fractal computations for Heroscape maps, I'd just like to say, in the immortal words of Keanu Reaves - "Whoa".

[Eclipse]

I don't think trying to assign numbers to vague terms like complexity. I think its more important to explore what complexities exist. Take Rock-Paper-Scissors for example. Simple game, you have three choices, you pick one and end up with a win, loss, or draw. Its actually less complex than that, as the three choices are only cosmetically different and have identical gameplay mechanics. The complexity therefore, is in determining the results. Since, they are based on both players' choices, the meta-game, of guessing your opponents choice is the real complexity.

I think examining the complexities of Heroscape themselves is a great way to explore the game further. I could go on for quite a while listing the different topics to cover, but I figure I'll just start with the most obvious: height. Height in Heroscape is interesting, because its almost always a binary option, but presents quite a few non-binary choices. Here's what height adds to the game.

Height bonus - The attack and defense values to that make claiming the high ground worthwhile. This is a very binary option that complicates other parts of the game, but is not very complicated itself.

Height movement - Far more interesting than the above. The climbing penalty creates a system that alters the distance traveled in one direction only. A path that only takes 5 move to cross "downhill" can easily take 10-20 move to cross "uphill". This is most interesting when considering threat range analysis, in which two characters with the same threat may not both be in each other's threat range at the same time.

Now lets add the other two factors based on character stats that complicate height further:

Character height - another, mostly binary factor, but an interesting one non the less. Character height can affect which paths are available to which characters. This allows you to create maps where height 5 figures may take a shortcut, but height 4 figures have to find another way. Character height is another thing that complicates a threat range analysis, which I'll go into in the next factor.

Character range - both overly simplistic and rather complicated at the same time, a characters range makes the concept of threat range far more interesting than the counting the hexes between two figures. Range trumps movement by ignoring the climbing penalty, which makes for some interesting figures. While it may take 12 move to reach the space an enemy figure currently occupies, a melee figure may be able to attack with just 3-4 move, simply because that last Range point in their threat range counts for so much more than their static move value, limited by their height. Of course, range > 1 figures are blessed with a threat range that is rarely, if ever limited by height, which is why they prove so dominate on larger maps.

Those are just a few of the things height adds to the game, and height itself is just a small fraction of the complexities available. Personally, the one thing I'm aching to see in Heroscape is more non-static complexities. Currently there's very little beyond the threat range analysis and probability measures that go into the average turn. Order markers are a great thing to dive into, offering a level of meta-gameplay that's often overlooked, but don't really offer and dynamics in the immediate game. Glyphs are a great option for adding complexity to the game and probably need to be studied further to how they should be properly placed. The one thing I hope to see more of is dynamic terrain like the castle door. Terrain that can alter the course of the game in ways beyond attack and defense and more reasons to explore the map beyond moving within attack range. I think that's the next big step for the game, personally.

[Sagart]

Originally Posted by Finrod

Yea, far too much. :)

But I agree with you on your central premises. I don't think Heroscape will ever get old... or at least it'll take a VERY long time.

In fact, I find myself at odds with other players who seem to think that "ordinary" Heroscape is already old, and you HAVE to add customs and stuff to it to make it interesting. I disagree. The map possibilities are virtually endless, and that makes every game different. With the wide range of characters and units that are still expanding, there are virtually infinite variations and combinations that can still be tried. I know I haven't even gotten close to exploring them all myself.

It's hard to say that someone is wrong in the way they feel about something. De gustibus non disputandum. [I think that I've used this before. Loose translation; "Dar ain't no accounting fer taste."] As some players think that "ordinary" HS is already old, well ... for them it is. And if for some, than it can and already has gotten old. That's my point. It doesn't matter that the game is "infinitely" variable. You can't say to someone; "You can't be bored with the game, you haven't exhausted all the possibilities!" Well, you could say it, but it wouldn't make much of a difference. Once it's gotten old, it's gotten old. I put it to all of those who have had more than one "partner." [Linearly, not at the same time.] How is it possible that you could fall out of love with or become board with such a complex and "infinitely" variable creature as another human being? I don't know, but it just happens doesn't it? To some the game will never appeal. To others there will be some level of interest for some period of time, and then it'll get old. And who knows, maybe they'll come back to it some day. To still others the game will hold their interest for all their gaming lives. And that's OK. It's a sound enough game to not have to appeal to all of the people all of the time. And I don't think that it does.

[yagyuninja]

Way to be all reasonable and stuff. Sheesh.

[Finrod]

Originally Posted by Sagart

It's hard to say that someone is wrong in the way they feel about something. De gustibus non disputandum. [I think that I've used this before. Loose translation; "Dar ain't no accounting fer taste."] As some players think that "ordinary" HS is already old, well ... for them it is. And if for some, than it can and already has gotten old. That's my point. It doesn't matter that the game is "infinitely" variable. You can't say to someone; "You can't be bored with the game, you haven't exhausted all the possibilities!" Well, you could say it, but it wouldn't make much of a difference. Once it's gotten old, it's gotten old.

If you'll re-read what I posted, I said that I disagreed with them. I didn't say they were WRONG. For ME, it hasn't gotten old, and I don't see it happening.

[Xaqery]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

Checkers has two types of pieces (regular and kings) and 64 spaces and 12 pieces, so would be 2 x 64 x 12 = 1,536.

Technically Checkers only has 32 spaces.

Revdryer, this is one of the more interesting threads I have read here. I am a geek about board games and math and not great at either.

Independently I have thought of this problem too. my thoughts went like this:

The complexity of the Heroscape = M x A x P; Where M is the number of different maps I can build and A is the number of different I armies I can bring to it. We will get to P later. : - )

The number of different maps I can build have several limiting factors:
How much room do I have on my table?

How much more money can I spend and stay married?

How many different maps do I want to do? Meaning there are a large number but very finite number of things I want to build map wise. One large castle in the center; two castles one on each end, a river with a bridge, a vast wasteland, a range friendly environment, a ranged hostile environment, ect. At some point the new ideas are just improvements of the old ideas.

So pulling a guess out of my shorts I will claim M is precisely 33.

The A(rmies) factor has similar restraints but is largely what do I want to play which is based on taste. Lets call A = 25.

So without even knowing what P is we have (33 x 2 hours to tear down old map; design new one on Virtualscape, then build new one) x (25 x 2 hours to play a game) = 3300 hours of fun. Since I get a very finite amount of time to play those 3300 hours are the same as endless.

Back to the complexity of the game. M x A x P. , P is the p sychology, the predictions, and the people skills. "If I move these units here and those there which will he move and in which order" ect. P = infinity.

- Dwight

NOTE to admins the editor would not let me have 'p' next to "sychology". It took me a while to figure it out. Weird. I kept getting "You don't have permission to access /community/posting.php on this server." Untill I misspelled it.

[GreyOwl]

Personally, I think what provides the most complexity in HeroScape is the fact that every card can change the rules somewhat. Without special abilities, the game is quite simple. But add them in, and it creates all sorts of interesting combinations, and it can become difficult to determine the best armies to create.

The other stuff, like the sheer number of maps that could be made, or army combinations, is not (in my opinion) "complexity". That is variety. So for me, that's what I like about it - it is a game full of variety, and is rather simple. There are some complex aspects (which isn't bad), but even those are approached in a very simple manner. Not a ton of rules in a book, but unique traits to each figure. I love it. And that is the sign of good design, after all. Simplicity, not complexity.

[Ormus]

Cycoduck I have returned with the answer and it is : 42 :P
No but seriously, I didn't say that I was going to "figure out the chaos theory". I just wanted to play around with the idea as it applies to HS. That's what this forum is all about.

With that said, I think Xaqery makes a really good point here. When I first read this thread height was the first factor that I thought about. No other strategy game has a board/map like HS. So calculating possiblities becomes infinite, with a possible limitless size and height on a given board. That is why I suggested a control map to use for calculations sake. At least with one master set and a controlled number of points per army the possibilities could become finite.

[Revdyer]

Xauery: of course, about checkers! Duh me!

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I'm sorry Ninth... Wait, did my 1000th post get deleted? Oh well. I guess I was asking for it. However, I'm of the opinion that your 1000th post only comes once!

Anyways, I'll post what I posted in the now deleted post for posterity.

Originally Posted by Fuzzie Fuzz

Huzza! I applaud you, Rev! That has got to be the best post I've ever seen.

Yes. Customs will never stop. House rules will never stop. And beyond that, it will never cease to bring up new questions, give new answers, show off new combinations which work well, etc.