Cavemen on Dinosaurs

[guido]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

It has recently come to my attention that there are multiple people here who believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time. I always assumed that a belief in Flintstones as historically accurate was a theory reserved for religious goofballs, but it appears that many people here do actually believe the men and dinosaurs shared the planet at the same time.

So in my usual completely insensitive manner, I was wondering if those of you who believe in Land of the Lost would maybe answer a few questions.

1) Do you believe that God created the world from nothing in a literal 7-day period? Like if we had been there, we wouldn't have had time to grow a decent beard?

2) Do you just say that carbon dating is a tool of the devil? Because if you don't, how do you reconcile a considerable pile of scientific evidence that would really destroy the Lost World theories for people who are not allowing religion to overrule science?

3) If you believe that humans and dinosaurs were alive at the same time, are you an American Protestant? (I predict an extremely high correlation)

4) Can anyone explain why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world?

I really am curious how an otherwise reasonable person believes in what seems to me to be such an obviously irrational theory.

And just when I was thinking about removing that emoticon from my sig... I just feel obligated to answer some of your points.

1) I can grow an awesome beard in just seven days. That said, no, I believe the seven days is a reference to seven stages. Besides, like God is bound by time.

2) I'm not saying carbon dating is evil or wrong. I do know for a fact that it is largely inaccurate. I have seen 20 year old wool blankets that register as 3k years old. But then, we're only talking about a few thousand years. When you consider that dinosaurs register in the millions, the accuracy problem becomes negligible.

3) I'm an American Protestant and I do not believe that dinosaurs and humans co-existed. I am not entirely offended by this remark, mostly because I know a few crazies within the religion, but I would appreciate it if there were no generalizations regarding Protestants.

4) No, I cannot. If I could, I still wouldn't. I believe beyond a fraction of a doubt that God uses evolution as a tool. Not thinking so would be like saying he doesn't use Physics as a tool either. Evolution is not witchcraft and I do not understand why Extremist Religious Nutjobs, Protestant or otherwise, want to burn scientists at the stake. IMO, science is used to study and explain God's works, not to deny them.

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by Eckels

You're not questioning the irrationality of the compromise, Imax. You're questioning the logic, not rationale, of believing in god - an argument that will never be settled - at least not with the faithful. It's a waste of time.

No I'm not. I'm not questioning the existence of God. Like Malechi, I don't presume to know his name, but I think there is one. I wouldn't call myself agnostic, but I also don't believe that any one religion is right in exclusivity of all others. However, you can believe that the Bible is a divinely-inspired text that is free of deliberate falsehood and still be able to believe that God used evolution and millions of years to create the world. The creationism/evolution schism is entirely artificial, and the product of (in my opinion) misguided religion.

I rarely believe discussion is a waste of time.

I concede that I am derisive of people who believe dinosaurs and cavemen existed at the same time. However, even if I think it's funny, I'm not willing to write them off completely without discussion. I mourn your willingness to dismiss people without an attempt to understand them.

[Lord Pyre]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

1) Do you believe that God created the world from nothing in a literal 7-day period? Like if we had been there, we wouldn't have had time to grow a decent beard?

2) Do you just say that carbon dating is a tool of the devil? Because if you don't, how do you reconcile a considerable pile of scientific evidence that would really destroy the Lost World theories for people who are not allowing religion to overrule science?

3) If you believe that humans and dinosaurs were alive at the same time, are you an American Protestant? (I predict an extremely high correlation)

4) Can anyone explain why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world?

Alright, I will voice my opinions and force my beliefs onto you.

J/k... Hehe..

1) That is what the Bible says, yes.
2) No, it's not a tool of the devil, but it is rather flawed., I believe.
3) Not at the very beginning, no. God made the animals on day 4 or 5, I think; while he made man on day 6. They were there a few days without them.
4) Can we explain why He made the world? He certainly could have, but didn't. If you disagree with me and think he did, please tell me where the missing links are. But, of course, if you do, they wouldn't be missing, which throws us all into a word paradox.

My main argument against evolution is simply this: How the heck could this world be made by a random explosion? Can you put a ton of matter into a bag, then when shaking it, can you have an amoeba come out? No; it's impossible. Only someone vastly intelligent and powerful could even think of a plan to make something as complex as the human body. (Much less make it, but...)

Frankly, I've never heard real evidence for evolution that couldn't be countered with this argument. Of course, there isn't real evidence against the Bible, either, so that puts us in a standstill. So that basically gives us a choice. Do you want to be considered an over-developed animal, whose only purpose is to eat, sleep, and breed? Or do you want to accept God's Word, in which he placed us in charge of earth, and promises us life after death?

And Malechi, yes, the Bible is revised. But usually only to make reading it easier, by using more modern-style writing. (Read the King James version; you'll know what I mean...) The Bible is historically accurate. There are many other places who tell of a giant flood that wiped out mankind, for example.
(I won't deny that some completely change the Bible, by adding and subtracted from it. If those are the people to whom you're referring to, then the point is void since many [at least in my religion; I'm Lutheran] people stay away from those)

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by guido

3) I'm an American Protestant and I do not believe that dinosaurs and humans co-existed. I am not entirely offended by this remark, mostly because I know a few crazies within the religion, but I would appreciate it if there were no generalizations regarding Protestants.

I apologize if this came off as offensive. I meant some of my opening statement to be offensive, but not this part. I have a theory that there is a direct correlation between people who are willing to believe in Flintstones paleontology and the American Protestant church. I have never met a non-Protestant who believed in Land of the Lost. Every single 'creationist' I've ever met is a hardcore Protestant, and I am fairly sure that the entire anti-evolution movement is the result of religion battling with common sense.

I know that there are very sane American Protestants. I am good friends with more than one. I would be remiss if I was belittling Protestants in general, and that was not my intent.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

1) Do you believe that God created the world from nothing in a literal 7-day period? Like if we had been there, we wouldn't have had time to grow a decent beard?

Nope. Billions of years, big bang, all that jazz.

2) Do you just say that carbon dating is a tool of the devil? Because if you don't, how do you reconcile a considerable pile of scientific evidence that would really destroy the Lost World theories for people who are not allowing religion to overrule science?

Nope, science is great.

3) If you believe that humans and dinosaurs were alive at the same time, are you an American Protestant? (I predict an extremely high correlation)

Nope and no.

4) Can anyone explain why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world?

No.

[HSisforcoolkids]

4) There is no reason why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world. I adhered to the God-used-evolution theory for quite some time before I actually studied evolution a little and realized there is no where near enough evidence to prove it as of yet (I know many will disagree with me on that point and they are free to do so). I am still open to evolution as a possibility, but I will need more proof before I buy it as a likelihood.

Also, I think that it is a bit of a generalization to say that it is only the religious who are fueling this debate. I agree that it is artificial to put creationism against evolution, but it is not only the religious who are doing so. There are atheist-evolutionists who attack religious-creationists and their beliefs as stupid, childish, arrogant, etc. Fault certainly lies on both sides when it comes to fueling this debate.

(BTW, I don't think dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, but I just wanted to throw my in there with my above comments.

[Finrod]

I'm really going to regret this.

But I like IMax, so I'll try to give him a serious answer to his questions and try to avoid any ridicule. (yea, like that's gonna happen...)

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

1) Do you believe that God created the world from nothing in a literal 7-day period? Like if we had been there, we wouldn't have had time to grow a decent beard?

Most likely, yep. I happen to believe the Bible, due to my own study of it and its origins. I also happen to believe in an all-powerful God. If He says He did it in seven days, I have no problem with that. If He said He did it in seven seconds, I'd have no problem with that. If He said He did it in seven billion years, I'd have no problem with that. He's GOD, ya know. He can do whatever He wants.

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

2) Do you just say that carbon dating is a tool of the devil? Because if you don't, how do you reconcile a considerable pile of scientific evidence that would really destroy the Lost World theories for people who are not allowing religion to overrule science?

Nope, carbon dating is not a "tool of the devil." And when you say "carbon dating," I'm going to assume you're not JUST talking about actual radiocarbon dating, since that's a reference to a specific process that helps determine the age of carbonaceous materials (generally speaking, that means organic matter). Radiocarbon dating is only accurate up to a few thousand years, and even then there have been numerous anomalies. However, I'm going to assume you mean radiometric dating in general, which includes carbon dating and also other forms of measuring half-lifes, such as potassium-argon and uranium-lead.

The problems with these dating methods are numerous. But let's start with a very simple and basic reason for doubting them: the assumptions. In order to accept radiometric dating as an accurate measurement, you have to 1) assume that the amount of the original element (such as uranium in uranium-lead) has never changed throughout the ages from any kind of outside influence, 2) assume that the amount of the secondary element (such as lead in uranium-lead) was absolutely ZERO in the beginning and has never been modified throughout the ages from any kind of outside influence, and 3) assume that the decay rate of the elements has never, ever changed throughout the ages. That last one is the major key to me. How can we know the decay rate has remained constant for millions of years? We can't, since we weren't around to observe it, and our current observations of decay rate are extremely limited. We're measuring a decay rate that happens over a few decades and then extrapolating it out to millions or billions of years? That's highly suspect, IMHO.

Due to all of these limitations, we get wildly divergent dates from rock layers that are supposed to be "in order." We get rocks on the upper layers of the Grand Canyon that are supposedly millions of years older than ones at the bottom, etc.

There are numerous holes and assumptions in radiometric dating. So while I don't believe it's a "tool of the devil," I do believe there are significant issues in it that cause me not to be too worried about it supposedly contradicting my beliefs.

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

3) If you believe that humans and dinosaurs were alive at the same time, are you an American Protestant? (I predict an extremely high correlation)

Yep, I'm an American Protestant. Oh, the shame and horror. How could this BEEEE?

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

4) Can anyone explain why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world?

Sure.

In this case, it depends entirely on whether you believe in the Bible. Without it, there's absolutely no issue with accepting that God used evolution. However, when I read Genesis, even if I take the assumption that "God didn't really mean a real day," I see a specific order of creation that doesn't match up at ALL with evolution. I can't reconcile the two in my mind. I tried that at one point in my life. I also see a God who created all things and proclaimed them "very good." I see a God of absolute love, etc., and I can't reconcile that personality with a method of creation that relies almost solely on violent struggles, death and destruction (survival of the fittest).

If you're willing to throw out the first few chapters of Genesis as some kind of vague allegory, and then throw out every reference to them throughout the rest of the Bible by all those (including Jesus) who believed them, then you could quite easily say God used evolution.

So there's my answers for ya, Imax. I'm willing to answer further questions of a truly curious nature, but I'm not at all interested in engaging in a vehement debate with dozens of others inserting themselves into the proceedings. I did plenty of that when I first started out on teh interwebs, and got totally burned out on it. No one's mind gets changed, so what's the point?

[Fezzikthedoor]

The moment someone says to me, with a straight face, that they honestly believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time, four things happen to me in roughly this order:

1. I laugh, thinking they are joking then laugh harder when I realize they aren't.

2. I feel a great swell of pity for that person, who may be an otherwise rational individual but who has been unable to divorce themselves of the need to feel both that they are the center of the universe and an unworthy being unable to exist without scraping, bowing, and cotowing to an impossible to please imaginary being in hopes of cheating their own inevitable death which each of us has the misfortune of knowing about.

3. My own tolerent view of religion--in the sense that if you stay out of my affairs I'll stay out of yours; a principle that no religion has ever been able to pull off if given anything even remotly resembling power--takes yet another blow when I realize that you can vote the same as I.

4. I shrug my shoulders and go on about my life, marveling at the wonderful scientific discoveries we make every single day that make a burning bush look like a cheap parlor trick or the flimsy imaginings of an illeterate goat herder.

Yaba-daba-do, folks.

[markwars]

IMax, if the Loch Ness Monster is a plesiosaur would that make you an idiot?

[Eckels]

Now that I have time to sit and type, I'm going to add my 2c.

You'll never disprove religion with science.

It's impossible.

Science is just as much a belief system as religion. when it comes down to it(both sides listen to people in long shirts. A robe or a labcoat. Might as well be a pair of shorts, and a thong.) We both believe what we believe.

People who believe in science, believe in things that they can see, hear, touch, taste, smell, detect, prove, disprove, test, re-test, re-re-re-test, etc. Science-minded peoples beliefs change over time, as we learn more about what's around us. What scientists believe as "fact" is constantly questioned, reviewed, and often changed as more is learned.

People who believe in religion, believe in things that they read, are told, and experience for themselves. Religion-minded people have beliefs that do not change over time. Aspects of their beliefs may change to suit the current state of common knowledge, such as saying that "Of course god created the world using Evolution". What Religionists believe as "fact" is constantly upheld, rarely questioned, and changed even less.

Neither side has a point that can disprove the other. Not for lack of trying, mind you. It's not two scientific points that can be argued. It's debating something that can be demonstrated, with something that has to be imagined. You're trying to compare two things that exist in entirely different dimensions. Neither will become the inevitable victor.

That's why this argument is basically a lost cause from the start. Neither side can win. How about a nice game of chess?



Now, if you ask me, being a strictly logical thinking person, I would tell you that all religions are rubbish. They're all relics, from an ancient time when we, as human beings, didn't have the intellectual capacity to explain ourselves out of a paper bag.

That's my viewpoint. I'm entitled to it. Don't think about trying to take it from me.

Religious folks are not stupid, or in any way less intelligent for having a faith. There are a lot of positives to religion. Stronger community, hope, love, etc. A lot of these are aspects of life that some people simply cannot find without religion. It even does a convenient job of explaining why we exist. The bible is a handy, one-source book for people who don't really want to spend the time looking for better answers.

I will show nothing but respect for those people who enjoy and celebrate their faith, as long as they keep it to themselves. Try and stick it in my face, or put in a public school, then we're going to butt heads, and hard.

It's religion, not science.

[keglo]

As a believer I have no problem with a literal 7 day creation, but one of the best theories that I have heard that explains a true 7 day creation, but still accounts for and "old" earth comes form a orthodox Jewish Scientist/Author Gereld Schroder. I would highly recommend reading his books. I is very interesting even if you don't buy into it.

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

You just have to discard the idea that you know how God tells time.

This is exactly at the center of Mr. Shcroder's theories.


http://www.amazon.com/Science-God-Co...1630052&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Face-Go...1630645&sr=8-1

[AgentX-127]

Originally Posted by HSisforcoolkids

4) There is no reason why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world.

I decided that for myself when I was in the 5th grade.

Originally Posted by HSisforcoolkids

I adhered to the God-used-evolution theory for quite some time before I actually studied evolution a little and realized there is no where near enough evidence to prove it as of yet

Wow. This is what scares me, because you seem reasonable enough to consider God-Managed (aka Theist) evolution.
So I fear your doubt in evolution is a result of the ongoing propaganda coming out of the Creationist camp which has now managed to infiltrate government, politics, and much of the mainstream consciousness.

You state that you studied evolution "a little" and decided there was not enough evidence to prove it. Well, there are mountains and mountains of research and data that serve as evidence for evolution. I wonder if you really studied anti-evolution propaganda?

As a scientific theory, Evolution will never will be 100% proven.
Therefor, anyone can say "You can't prove evolution."
Regardless of your belief, your life will be shaped by applications of the theory of Evolution (unless you refuse all modern medical treatment.)
Evolution is applied on a daily basis in the fields of medicine, biochemistry, molecular biology, and genetics. Our pharmaceutical companies develop, discover, and test new drugs using concepts of evolution as central to their research methods.

For those who doubt evolution, I am interested in knowing if you believe in:
Genes?
Artificial Selection? (used by Humans for thousands of years in the domestication of plant and animal species.)
Plate tectonics?
Nuclear Fusion?

Originally Posted by Finrod

If you're willing to throw out the first few chapters of Genesis as some kind of vague allegory, and then throw out every reference to them throughout the rest of the Bible by all those (including Jesus) who believed them, then you could quite easily say God used evolution.

Jesus spoke in parables, which are allegories. Many other chapters of the Bible contain symbols, allegories, fables, myths, and were meant to be understood as such.

Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians:

Originally Posted by Paul of Tarsus

For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. The child of the slave was born according to the flesh; the child of the free woman was born through the promise. Now this is being allegorized: for these women are two covenants. One, indeed, is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. This is Hagar, for Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is a slave with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:22-26

Matthew in his Gospel also re-interprets several passages from the Old Testament, such as when the Prophet Hosea says "Out of Egypt I called my son," Matthew says this is a reference to Jesus, as well as Isaiah's promise of a son to King Ahaz.

The veracity of the Bible shouldn't hinge on a literal belief of its oldest chapter. My Church does not expect me to believe that Genesis is a literal history. In fact, we know that the biblical story of Genesis is an adaptation of a much older Mesopotamian creation myth, (you know, the one that included Noah and Gilgamesh,) which the Hebrews were exposed to during their Babylonian captivity. Since the Babylonians revered a snake deity in their version, and the Hebrews turned that upside down as an expression of their defiance of their Babylonian dominators.

I think God performs miracles on Earth and in the Heavens every day for us to observe and wonder about.
And I believe he wants us to use the powers of our intellect to come to understand the amazing Universe he has created for us.

Denying the evidence for evolution that God reveals to us every single day is denying God himself.