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  #589  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 08:56 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

For what it's worth I agree with Foudzing's logic but I've given up on trying to convince dok otherwise.

Isn't Ulginesh a remarkable bargain for 150 points in an elf build? Without him the army is terrible. In an elf build, Ulginesh is delivering high "value for his points" too, or else he wouldn't be an essential piece. Same for Talingul. It doesn't really make sense to have certain pieces of the build higher than the commanders when they're facilitated by the commanders making them good. It's always felt to me like a hand wave away of the commander figure's power to defer to the other pieces that more visibly do something.
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  #590  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 09:55 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

You guys should make your own rankings threads.

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  #591  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 10:14 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

To be fair, vegie has. But the complaints/debates never bother me anyway. It's good to have the discussion.

vegie's argument that I'm kind of handwaving away the essential power that makes the army work is well-taken, but when we analyze these kinds of armies for Delta we usually end up concluding that the commander is overpriced. Yes, they are essential for the army but they are not great for their points.

I recognize that on some level it's pointless to break the rankings of things like Ulginesh and Arkmer, but I think it serves as a signal of how valuable Arkmer is in the build. Nobody's going to forget to play Ulginesh.
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  #592  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 10:26 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
To be fair, vegie has.
Excellent! Can you link the other power rankings threads in the OP of this one? I do think it's useful to see many perspectives.

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  #593  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 10:51 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

The project of power rankings and the project of Delta are sort of separate, in my opinion. Delta is about creating a meta where things are generally balanced, power rankings are about reflecting how good figures are at base price. Already there's differences due to the Delta meta, like needing to raise Warriors of Ashra and Cutters more than the proportionate rank due to the absence of special attacks in the metagame.

Back to commanders though. I think the reason most commanders are overpriced is that the original designers just thought these powers would be really good. The result is armies that aren't super high on the power rankings, so they needed to come down in cost in Delta. We actually have had to be careful about Ulginesh in Delta because at some point he becomes a viable cleanup figure on his own; ranged flying is good.

Ultimately the power rankings are just words though. I can keep playing the B+ Brute Gruts and they'll still be better than that in reality. The downside to the "call out the essential companions for the commander strategy" is that when people set arbitrary cutoffs based on power rankings for tournament ban lists, they can cut out figures like Arkmer and make the elf army worse even in the restricted format where they'd otherwise do well. Not the original intent of power rankings, but it's how they're sometimes used in practice.
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  #594  
Old March 22nd, 2023, 09:49 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
The downside to the "call out the essential companions for the commander strategy" is that when people set arbitrary cutoffs based on power rankings for tournament ban lists, they can cut out figures like Arkmer and make the elf army worse even in the restricted format where they'd otherwise do well. Not the original intent of power rankings, but it's how they're sometimes used in practice.
I do think about that. Like, should my goal be to tailor the power rankings to ban list events? Even though I don't particularly like ban list events? Maybe it is the best course of action, but it's not my current approach.
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  #595  
Old March 23rd, 2023, 09:42 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
You guys should make your own rankings threads.
Well the point of all that is to make a community rankings everyone "kinda" agrees so organizers can use to make banlist very fast.

If I count correctly there is now 5 rankings threads (spider_poison, dok, OEAO, vegie, cleon), all have their differences, I don't think anyone would go read my own personal ranking if I were to post it. I think posting specifically on the units I disagree with is more interesting (to some people).

And it's still interesting to talk about what pople think is strong or not, it's the point of the thread isn't it?

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  #596  
Old March 23rd, 2023, 09:52 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
To be fair, vegie has. But the complaints/debates never bother me anyway. It's good to have the discussion.

vegie's argument that I'm kind of handwaving away the essential power that makes the army work is well-taken, but when we analyze these kinds of armies for Delta we usually end up concluding that the commander is overpriced. Yes, they are essential for the army but they are not great for their points.

I recognize that on some level it's pointless to break the rankings of things like Ulginesh and Arkmer, but I think it serves as a signal of how valuable Arkmer is in the build. Nobody's going to forget to play Ulginesh.
To me you are just purposely under-rating the enabler/commander so people can try a sub-optimal build (example elves without Arkmer and constructs without Boreos) in lower tiers, which is I think a good thing actually, so forget the point I made about units being the same rank, yes it would made a more realist ranking but it would decrease variety in "X or lower" formats.

But to me if we were purely ranking figures, the enablers/commanders that are absolutely necessary to the build, should be top figure of the build, always.

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  #597  
Old April 2nd, 2023, 03:23 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Estivara C -> B+

C feels really low for Estivara. She's an 80 point Taelord for one of the best squads in the VC meta. Chris Perkins's Quahon build in 600 point VCheese is running her, and she's a meaningful piece in the army in certain matchups.

I don't think she's the optimal build for Spiders at more standard point totals, but I think you could easily run a build like Estivara, Quahon, Spiders x4, Raelin at 510 and not notice the competitive difference relative to the more standard 520 point build with one more squad of Spiders and the Marro Warriors. A build like that could easily win a cheese event, and Estivara would be contributing, so I think C is way too low. I think you could even argue higher than B+, but I'd need to see more results.
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  #598  
Old April 2nd, 2023, 03:56 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Estivara C -> B+

C feels really low for Estivara. She's an 80 point Taelord for one of the best squads in the VC meta. Chris Perkins's Quahon build in 600 point VCheese is running her, and she's a meaningful piece in the army in certain matchups.

I don't think she's the optimal build for Spiders at more standard point totals, but I think you could easily run a build like Estivara, Quahon, Spiders x4, Raelin at 510 and not notice the competitive difference relative to the more standard 520 point build with one more squad of Spiders and the Marro Warriors. A build like that could easily win a cheese event, and Estivara would be contributing, so I think C is way too low. I think you could even argue higher than B+, but I'd need to see more results.
I've felt this way for a long time...maybe I'll just have to play her more in events to prove a point (though that means I actually have to win to prove the point haha)

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  #599  
Old April 2nd, 2023, 04:08 PM
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FWIW

I think she's more of a B figure than a B+ but I see the argument.

~Dysole, who loves Estivara armies but they're usually better without Quahon
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  #600  
Old April 2nd, 2023, 04:27 PM
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Re: FWIW

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I think she's more of a B figure than a B+ but I see the argument.

~Dysole, who loves Estivara armies but they're usually better without Quahon
Why is Estivara better without Quahon? Genuinely curious. I haven't experimented with Estivara heavily but in my theoryscape a ranged bonder is good for pulling enemies in Estivara's aura.
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