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  #7573  
Old April 4th, 2022, 06:06 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Drow Assassin by Leaf_It

The Drow looked like they might play a big role in 'Scape starting with BftU but they never quite lived up to the hype. Does adding an assassin cut them a new path towards viability?

Balance

25 point common heroes are, well, common in Heroscape. There currently are 7 such figures (4 classic and 3 VC) that fit the description. All are melee except the Tombstone Gunslinger. Most have some kind of activation synergy (Rogue bonding for the Beakface, Death Knight bonding for the Dumutef, Master of Shadows for the Binder, Beast bonding for the Swog, and Outlaw Band for the Gunslinger).

A quick look at the stats each one has seems to put the Assassin in good company. Many 25-point figures have better stat lines, with 3 or 4 defense being a common advantage, and several others having 4 attack or the ability to get 4 attack.

The Drow Assassin has two things to set her apart from the other common fillers here: First is her self-bonding capability and second is her ability to throw 6 guaranteed attack dice without bonuses.

In fact, using her double turn potential gives the Drow Assassin 6 attack at a threat range of 13 (not counting switch possibilities). This is definitely an outsized damage output. Isamu, notably, can also throw 6 attack dice but only against Jandar targets. The Drow Assassin can throw 6 attack dice against any target without prior positioning plays. The next cheapest figure that has that solo attack potential is Pel the Hill Giant at 95 points.

And, of course, the threat range of 13 is super good. About the only comparable play is Alastair's Overextend Attack which gives him an effective threat range of 11 (and Alastair is much better at taking LEAs).

So. A little on the high side of balanced as far as potential attack output goes, we'll see what the gameplay says.

Creativity + Theme

Nice tight design package here. All the powers support the theme of taking a single powerful opportunistic strike. Each one is relatively clear and simple to understand, or reused wholesale from other previous cards (looking at you, Hide in Darkness).

Playability

I played this figure in two basic army compositions: either ~4x mixed in with ~3 squads of Drow, or splashed at 2-4x in an army that was in dire need of a can-opener.

With the Deepwyrm Drow, I really really enjoyed playing the Drow Assassin. The switching ability was fun to pull off and allowed the Drow player to take some risky shots without sacrificing board control. In general, the Assassins are only useful for a single high attack per round, and they usually die right after, so it's always interesting to plan ahead for when you want to pull the trigger and shoot the Drow Assassin into the fray.

I came into this review fresh off of the Yokai, who had several noticeable weaknesses but one specific strength: the ability to assassinate a key figure by bum-rushing for an attack of 6. The Drow Assassin can do that as well, especially with a line of Deepwyrms out front for easy shadow shifting. This made them good Raelin assassins, good Kurrok/Xundar assassins, and serviceable assassins for most any bonding hero.

The other way I ran Assassins was by splashing them into armies with low attack (usually 2-4 assassins alongside 2-attack figures. This made OMs more tricky but for the most part you can just bide your time until your Assassins are one of the only army pieces you have left. Starting about mid-game, putting an OM or two on the Assassin card helps keep the pressure on the opposing team.

Nobody wants to open up their valuable figures to 6 dice (or 7 with height), so even the threat of Assassination will greatly impact your opponent's positioning through the game. Usually this materializes into at least one big attack of 6 but occasionally 2-3. If your opponent plays to avoid that it really slows any game down to the point where it becomes less enjoyable to play since neither side is putting out much offense.

One other point that works in the Assassins' favor is that as common heroes they share a single card. If one Drow Assassin gets tied down or even killed, the OMs are still valid for any other Drow Assassins you have in your SZ. Very hard to neutralize the entire threat at once. And it often doesn't matter as the Drow player which Assassin you need to activate, 13 threat range can get to a lot of places.

Some memorable Assassinations from my testing: Warden 816, Raelin (several times), Xundar, Master Lao Xin, Tor-Kul-Na, Quahon, Nerak, Pel.

Summary

It seems to me that the Drow Assassin was slightly overtuned to make up for the Deepwyrm Drow's comparative weakness. And, by and large, I have no complaints with that build. It is enjoyable to play and requires careful development to pull off good assassination plays. But splashing 2x Drow Assassin in another army for 50 points and a very high likelihood of some very high leverage attacks just continued to stick out to me as too good. Maybe something as simple as nerfing to a +1 attack bonus or preventing the Heracles-style double activation would address my concerns, I'm not entirely sure.

If you go read the current discussion about Alastair in the Power Rankings thread, much of his value is tied up in the high-variance play of 1-2 attacks of 5 at a large threat range (or 3-4 around an initiative switch). The Drow Assassin provides similar damage potential (potentially more) at a fraction of the cost. So while I did like what the Drow Assassin brought to the table, in the end it was a bit much for its point cost, and I vote to induct.
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  #7574  
Old April 4th, 2022, 09:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

@Scytale thanks for the vote!
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  #7575  
Old April 7th, 2022, 12:45 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

After some thought, I am going to withdraw the Drow Assassin.
After reading superfrog's review, and talking it over with several others my current plans are to change the following:
• Lower Shadow Shift's range to 4 spaces, down from 5.
• Add the following stipulation to Drow Ambush "that has not moved or attacked since the last order marker was revealed", preventing a single Assassin from triggering itself, but still allowing multiple Assassins to trigger each other.
• Lower the Attack buff from Drow Ambush to +1, down from +2.
I will be testing with these changes, plan to resubmit in a month or so.

---- ---- ---- ----

I would like to resubmit Lee Jun, the 1 monk Legion.


Card text:
Spoiler Alert!


The changes from the previous submission are as follows:
• Added a maximum limit to Melee Combat Expert, so that the fight is less oppressive against an all melee army.
• Raised the point cost to 70 to better reflect the value in an ideal match up against all melee.

I believe that outside of a small selection of 1 or 2 attack melee armies, He is now properly balanced for melee. Lee Jun will still usually wreck low attack melee armies pretty decisively. I consider this to be a bad matchup for them. However melee armies with at least 3 attack will be far more consistent against him, and his lower Defensive potential now causes less consistency for Bending Reed Stance.

The figure used is a D&D figure from the "Giants of Legend" wave called "Scarlet Brotherhood Monk".

---- ---- ---- ----

I would also like to submit the Hounds of Perdition. This is a separate submission.



Card text:
Spoiler Alert!


Known Synergies:
Arktos (Hunter Attack Enhancement)
Khosumet the Dark Lord (Relentless Assault)
Knights of Blackgaard (Blackgaard Surge)

Balance/Playability: The main strategy to use when playing with the Hounds of Perdition is to engage a single figure, hope you roll defense well enough, and then on the next turn Drag them in such a way that you get a height attack on them. This can be tricky, and your opponent can relatively easily either engage you with multiple other figures, or position themselves in such a way that you must engage at least 2 figures at a time. They love a Movement glyph if you can get one. A neat trick you can do with Arktos or Khosumet is to drag the enemy in such a way that you both get the Attack buff from the hero, and the height bonus. It is possible to get a buff from both of them at the same time, but the added point cost, positioning, and order marker management is almost never worth it.

I recommend either using them as a clean up/shock squad, with 1 to 2 squads, or you can try to use them as your Bread and Butter with 4 - 6 squads and a hero to back them up in a lower point game. I have tested with up to 8 squads.

Theme: These are based on Hell Hounds. Creatures that would hunt those who's time had come, but had somehow avoided death. They are not inherently evil, but they could also hunt for powerful beings that had summoned them. Typically these would be Demons, but they could also be Wizards or other powerful beings. Moribund means on the verge of death. The idea is that only beings that are in mortal danger can see them. This is why heros that have a wound can see them, and why those that are engaged to them can see them. Those who are engaged can also tell their comrades that there's a giant dog next to them, so this is why they still have a hitzone while they are engaged.

The figures used are the Hell Hounds from Pathfinder Battles Deep Cuts Unpainted Minis.
You can buy them at:
MinitureMarket.com
NobleKnight.com
GnomishBazaar.com
MagicMiniMan.com
Paizo.com
Amazon.com
Ebay

I was able to find over 100 across these sites.

Last edited by Leaf_It; April 7th, 2022 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Removed a synergy that no longer applies to the submitted version of the Hounds of Perditon.
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  #7576  
Old April 7th, 2022, 02:20 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Drow Assassin has been removed by the submitter's request.

to review Lee Jun. This version of Lee Jun appears to have fixed the problems I had with the previous version.

to review Hounds of Perdition. The design is fun, but I have some problems with it. First, a Small figure dragging around a Large figure is a theme break for me. I think Medium is a stretch; Large is a no-go. The power is also overly complicated in that the different amounts of movement decreases are neat, but they're bells and whistles on a power that is naturally complex. Also, Veil of Moribund is great in that it's anti-range, but no-hit-zone powers are naturally problematic, creating endgame scenarios where running away and hiding are optimal. It's a problem the Wulfling Hunters originally had, and the reason powers like Stealthy on the Darkprowl Thrall give defense dice bonuses instead of untargetability. Not loving "Fiends" for the species either.
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  #7577  
Old April 7th, 2022, 02:48 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
to review Hounds of Perdition. The design is fun, but I have some problems with it. First, a Small figure dragging around a Large figure is a theme break for me. I think Medium is a stretch; Large is a no-go. The power is also overly complicated in that the different amounts of movement decreases are neat, but they're bells and whistles on a power that is naturally complex. Also, Veil of Moribund is great in that it's anti-range, but no-hit-zone powers are naturally problematic, creating endgame scenarios where running away and hiding are optimal. It's a problem the Wulfling Hunters originally had, and the reason powers like Stealthy on the Darkprowl Thrall give defense dice bonuses instead of untargetability. Not loving "Fiends" for the species either.

I almost made them Medium. They are pretty big, as you can see in this picture here. Medium is absolutely a go in my opinion, no stretching needed. They're nearly as big a Hoplitron. Admittedly Q9, Q10, and J15 are going to give them a harder time, but as anyone who has walked a large dog can tell you, they are very strong, and even if you are bracing yourself, they are very good at dragging you around. These are mythical Hell Hounds, larger than a Human, and stronger than a Horse. I think they could drag a Large figure a few spaces.

Fair points for the No-Hitzone aspect, and the Species. I just don't think that +4, or even to copy the Onyx Vipers and go with +8, is thematically equivalent to being invisible. Perhaps I need another way for enemies to be able to see them... I had posted these around 3 or 4 years ago to the Pre-SoV, and at the time their species was "Hell Hounds". One of the bits of feedback that I received was that "Hell Hound" was not something a number of people liked. I struggled to find a fitting name, and settled on Fiends as it seemed to thematically fit better than anything else I had thought of.
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  #7578  
Old April 7th, 2022, 02:48 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Agree to review Lee Jun

Also disagree to review the hounds. Drag is neat but there a really big larg figures. Also double space units might cause issues.

I'm also feeling like more and more of my collection is unpainted and there are a lot of spirits in the game at this point. They have a very strong stat line, which I guess could be playtested but they are spirit hounds. Pulling raelin up to 7 spaces away seems crazy powerful, just ask ashra.


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  #7579  
Old April 7th, 2022, 02:57 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Also disagree to review the hounds. Drag is neat but there a really big larg figures. Also double space units might cause issues.

I'm also feeling like more and more of my collection is unpainted and there are a lot of spirits in the game at this point. They have a very strong stat line, which I guess could be playtested but they are spirit hounds. Pulling raelin up to 7 spaces away seems crazy powerful, just ask ashra.
See my above post for size issues.

They are a 2 figure squad. They need strong stats to be relevant. Every 2 figure squad that isn't mostly useless (rip Zettian Guards) has some way of compensating the fact that they are only getting 2 attacks per turn. Gorilla Troopers can get 4 attacks. Skeleton Archers can get 4 attacks. The 53rd have 7 range, and can buff it to 9 range, and get +1 attack beyond 4 range. Sentinels of Grax have really high stats, and can revive themselves if they die. Deathknights can bond for at least a 3rd attack per turn, and have higher stats. Deathwings can blow themselves up for 5 Area Damage. 2 Figure squads are just like that.

I assume you meant Arashara, but it's not 7 spaces for Realin. She is medium, so it's 4 spaces for her.
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  #7580  
Old April 7th, 2022, 03:23 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I assume you meant Arashara, but it's not 7 spaces for Realin. She is medium, so it's 4 spaces for her.
It's 7. One Hound could drag Raelin to the other side of another engaged Hound, which could then drag her another 4 spaces.

And at that size they should probably be Medium.
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  #7581  
Old April 7th, 2022, 03:33 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I did test them being able to drag the same figure, but read the ability power again.
Quote:
DRAG:
If a Hound of Perdition starts its turn engaged to a Small, Medium, or Large opponent's figure, you may choose to Drag that figure. When a Hound of Perdition uses Drag, it subtracts 2 from its move if the figure was small, 3 if they were medium, and 4 if they were Large. After moving, if possible place the chosen figure on an empty adjacent space that Hound of Perdition moved through this turn. The chosen figure cannot make any leaving engagement attacks, and will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #7582  
Old April 7th, 2022, 03:36 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

to Lee Jun, seems like it's smoothed over pretty well and I was excited to try the previous version.

to the Hounds. Seems like a lot of complexity and I don't really like the minis. Dragging the Ogre Warhulk also doesn't make any sense. Not sure how best to articulate it but the card/mini package as a whole feels gimmicky or custom-y.

EDIT: Scy is saying that if Raelin is double-engaged, you can use one Hound to Drag her 2 spaces to the other side of the Hound (still engaged) and then the second Hound to Drag her another 4 spaces. This makes 6, not 7, since you have to place the figure on a space the Hound walked through, but you can double up Drags for sure.
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  #7583  
Old April 7th, 2022, 03:39 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I did test them being able to drag the same figure, but read the ability power again.
Quote:
DRAG:
If a Hound of Perdition starts its turn engaged to a Small, Medium, or Large opponent's figure, you may choose to Drag that figure. When a Hound of Perdition uses Drag, it subtracts 2 from its move if the figure was small, 3 if they were medium, and 4 if they were Large. After moving, if possible place the chosen figure on an empty adjacent space that Hound of Perdition moved through this turn. The chosen figure cannot make any leaving engagement attacks, and will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
You can still double-Drag Raelin, as long as the first Hound leaves Raelin engaged with the second. Though I suppose that doesn't actually buy you anything. But it's still a 6-space movement for Raelin, from in front of the Hound to behind it 4 spaces away.
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  #7584  
Old April 7th, 2022, 04:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
You can still double-Drag Raelin, as long as the first Hound leaves Raelin engaged with the second. Though I suppose that doesn't actually buy you anything. But it's still a 6-space movement for Raelin, from in front of the Hound to behind it 4 spaces away.
I see. I'm not sure this actually helps much, because you still have to move past Raelin, and you only get 4 spaces with the second Drag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Scy is saying that if Raelin is double-engaged, you can use one Hound to Drag her 2 spaces to the other side of the Hound (still engaged) and then the second Hound to Drag her another 4 spaces. This makes 6, not 7, since you have to place the figure on a space the Hound walked through, but you can double up Drags for sure.
Again, does this actually do anything to boost distance? You still only get 4 spaces that the second Drag can move her. This sounds like you didn't actually think about how this works in game play, and just realize that they can both move the same figure. It's still just 4 spaces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
to Lee Jun, seems like it's smoothed over pretty well and I was excited to try the previous version.

to the Hounds. Seems like a lot of complexity and I don't really like the minis. Dragging the Ogre Warhulk also doesn't make any sense. Not sure how best to articulate it but the card/mini package as a whole feels gimmicky or custom-y.
Well, I can't say that I agree with your assessment, but I respect the WarHulk concern. I think 3 no votes in a row, with no yea votes, is enough to convince me that this isn't getting through.
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