The Book of Ant-Man (Scott Lang)

[japes]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I tend to agree with you here Soundwarp SG-1.

I think the concern comes in the costing associated with certain synergy webs.

If the LD is cool with the design absorbing the costs I am for it.

It's not about absorbing the cost. My long standing issue is that we have on occasion create a card where the cost was completely based on non-thematic team-up. so much so that they aren't worth their point in the desired builds. For competitive guys that could care less about themematics it's not an issue and sure lots of times it's not enough points to matter. I'd just like to avoid these situations as much as possible. Since he's an Avenger and there is no limit on who Avenger's markers go on his class doesn't matter their.

To soundwarp's point about him teaming up with thieves in the movie...well, once he was Ant-Man he wasn't stealing anything.

As for alternatives...

Engineer, or something that lets him work with the F4 since other than Iron man/Avengers his biggest team-ups have been with them.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by japes

To soundwarp's point about him teaming up with thieves in the movie...well, once he was Ant-Man he wasn't stealing anything.

What?... the whole reason he was allowed to be Ant-Man was to 'Steal some ****' for Pym, like that was what the whole thing was about, getting the Yellowjacket suit before it got sold to Hydra or the like. His first real outing as Ant-Man is him stealing something from the Avengers' crib, then they do the 'break into Pym Tech' thing that his buddies actively assist him with.

As to the cost thing, I'm not sure I grok that. Having Thief as your class might be worth like 10 points maybe? He doesn't even especially like the Waller or Crime Alley boosts. There's basically no such thing as a 'free' class in C3G anyway, any random one-off/rare class just becomes part of Star-Lord's deal. Being a Thief wouldn't drive his cost in any sort of meaningful way, it just means he has a couple other options beyond 'random mish-mash build'.

Really if more people had meaningful classes (or more classes were meaningful), not only would the 'value' of any given class decrease, but you'd see more competitively viable armies with something resembling a theme. 'Waller blackmails Scott onto the Suicide Squad' at least makes more sense than 'Scott and a bunch of other guys that subtract defense or something, sure why not'.

EDIT- I suppose I should clarify that I don't have an issue (well, as much of an 'issue' as I can have I guess, like all things C3G, it honestly doesn't matter what y'all do with the card to me) with him getting a different class if anyone actually suggest one that fits, I'm just saying I don't think it's worth giving him some random one-off bs class over some synergies that don't really impact his 'Avenger-worthyness' all that much (if at all).

[japes]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

EDIT- I suppose I should clarify that I don't have an issue (well, as much of an 'issue' as I can have I guess, like all things C3G, it honestly doesn't matter what y'all do with the card to me) with him getting a different class if anyone actually suggest one that fits, I'm just saying I don't think it's worth giving him some random one-off bs class over some synergies that don't really impact his 'Avenger-worthyness' all that much (if at all).

I mentioned above that a lot of times the cost difference isn't that big of a deal and true his low cost to begin with probably isn't an issue but as a rule I think it's best to find a fit that eliminates this issue if possible.

Also I'm with you on the one-off classes. I'm not advicating that. I'm asking if there is an existing class that has usefulness besides Thief.

To clarify my argument on the Movie aspect...

To me a thief (especially as it's used in C3G) is someone who steals for their own gain or greed. Scott never in the movie, with the exception of the initial stealing of the suit, pre-Ant-man) stole for his own gain. Even the event that sent him to prison was to right a wrong.

[laughing matter]

Yeah, either Adventurer or Crime Fighter/Fighter would work since he's been on the FF and the Heroes for Hire. I'd lean more towards Adventurer though since he's been part of the Fantastic Four and the Future Foundation (same team, different branding) so he's got strong ties to that group.

Plus, the FF don't have any glyph grabbers that I can think of off the top of my head, but the Suicide Squad and the Thief Synergy are DEFINITELY NOT lacking.

Also, @Soundwarp SG-1 it seems like you're arguing for a version of Scott Lang to line up with the movie more than anything, and Scott Lang hasn't behaved that way since the 70's. He's a full fledged avenger and has strong ties to the FF as I said.

He's put his criminal career behind him, and only uses the skills he gained for good. I would say that throwing a bona-fide hero into a class that only consists of villains and characters that toe the line pretty heavily.
Plus the Suicide Squad synergy web of criminals, killers, mercenaries, and psychopaths is just not a very good fit for the modern version of the character.

If anything, the movie version of him was more akin to a first appearance version of himself, but LO isn't going for that. She's explicitly stated that she's going for the version of the guy who is a member of the Avengers, the guy who ran with the FF when they were the Fantastic Four and the Future Foundation. This Scott Lang isn't the newbie Ant-Man who is just starting to atone for his crimes, he's the guy who proved to the world time and again that HE IS A HERO.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

If anything, the movie version of him was more akin to a first appearance version of himself, but LO isn't going for that. She's explicitly stated that she's going for the version of the guy who is a member of the Avengers, the guy who ran with the FF when they were the Fantastic Four and the Future Foundation. This Scott Lang isn't the newbie Ant-Man who is just starting to atone for his crimes, he's the guy who proved to the world time and again that HE IS A HERO.

Umm... not really honestly. As I've said before I know this guy only from the MCU, both Ant-Man and Civil War, so I am primarily inspired by his early career. I want him to primarily work in Avengers builds, as that's clearly where his character's going. Fantastic Four I really don't care about, personally.

Originally Posted by japes

To me a thief (especially as it's used in C3G) is someone who steals for their own gain or greed. Scott never in the movie, with the exception of the initial stealing of the suit, pre-Ant-man) stole for his own gain. Even the event that sent him to prison was to right a wrong.

Okay, we have rather different definitions of the word 'Thief'. For me it is, quite simply, well.... someone who steals things. There isn't necessarily a moral tie to the word, and to my mind, the Ant-Man from the film may be a moral thief, but he's still a thief.

Originally Posted by laughing matter

He's put his criminal career behind him, and only uses the skills he gained for good. I would say that throwing a bona-fide hero into a class that only consists of villains and characters that toe the line pretty heavily.
Plus the Suicide Squad synergy web of criminals, killers, mercenaries, and psychopaths is just not a very good fit for the modern version of the character.

As Soundwarp's already said, Ant-Man may be a hero, but he's a hero who I can actually buy having his arm twisted by Waller and being drafted into the Suicide Squad.
Personally, I feel like Thief is enough of a morally grey rather than black class that I can see a redeemed hero fitting it as well as the all-out villains can - I'd say characters like Gambit open the way enough for someone like Scott. And when it comes to the potential for weird, ill fitting synergies... honestly, that doesn't bother me. Wonky synergies have always been a part of Heroscape, ever since the first wave with Romans bonding with Ne-Gok-Sa. This is a game where the Super-Skrulls (whose personalities are Vindictive and Malevolent) are welcomed into the Justice League with open arms on account of being Champions, and where Uncle Sam is strengthened by the Rocket Reds' patriotism towards Soviet Russia. It's one of the things that makes Heroscape fun. My worry about synergy wasn't that he'd be allowed into slightly odd armies, it was simply wanting to make sure that they don't overshadow using him in Avengers and hodge-podge builds, which, since he's primarily a filler and has the OM-restriction on Amateur Insect Control, I doubt will actually be an issue.

When it comes to Adventurer - I'm not wholly against it, but there's nothing that makes me personally inclined towards it. If people want him to work with the Fan 4 and the Future Foundation, then, again, if there's nothing overshadowing a more Avengers' style build for him, I'm okay with it, but there's nothing about him that's really screaming Adventurer to me, plus there was talk when I first posted this guy up about a possible Lang vII who's more of a leader for the Future Foundation, so it may be worth saving this for something like that. In the end, this guy's more meant to represent Scott in his early/mid career, where he's still putting his past behind him and just starting to work with the Avengers rather than leading an offshoot of the Fan 4.

Honestly, I'm still personally leaning towards Thief here.

[Viegon]

I'm a fan of going with Adventurer here, but I don't care too strongly about his class.

[dok]

Adventurer seems fine although thief seems fine too. Crime Fighter or Fighter would both feel awfully forced to me.

[Yodaking]

I'm firmly in the thief camp. I don't see how the thief synergy is going to drive his points in any meaningful way or how a 70 point figure could ever be priced out of any build you want to throw him into. With all the heavy hitters the Avenger builds regularly run with, a 70 point figure is going to be a popular and easy to fit in filler unit. Units getting priced out of their thematic pairings are generally medium to high point units that have a bunch of support powers that work better with one group that anyone else. The thief synergy web just isn't that strong to begin with and this card doesn't do anything special to make him must draft thief card. I actually would be much more concerned with him being an adventurer, with all the defense the Fan4 builds rock I would not want them to have a cheap and easy way to steal equipment glyphs from opponents. Suddenly you have a 10 defense unit holding onto your equipment and not letting go of it.

[johnny139]

Scott Lang in his initial storyline was a thief who stole the Ant-Man suit so that he could go break into a corporate office building. So he'd be a Thief.

After that, he becomes Ant-Man, and his role is more or less "be the shrinky guy" on the Avengers and occasional support for Iron Man. This period he'd probably best be an Avenger, solid and generic. Or Engineer, since that was his usual role in Iron Man.

He dies and comes back and leads the Future Foundation. (Also he beat up Doctor Doom, wow, how cool!) This design has virtually nothing in common with that era of the character, but he'd probably be an Adventurer.

The most recent solo series has him running his own security company, which employs other ex-cons, so he's sort of a Crime Fighter I guess. He'd fit in with the Heroes for Hire. Ultimately he's forced to play an Ocean's Eleven style heist though and he's back full circle to Thief. Goes on trial, gets off, hasn't really shown up anywhere since.

And of course the movie and all other adaptations of the character focus on his initial story.

I think Adventurer is off the table here - he's simply not the adventuring type in this iteration of the character. Thief would be my first choice, Engineer second, Avenger third.

In general very happy with this design though! As I have been for a while. My only real criticism is that "Tricky" is kind of a broad personality for him, so I'll brainstorm a bit on alternatives.

[Lazy Orang]

Okay, so that's two more Heroes in favour of Thief and opposed to Adventurer, for reasons I happen to agree with. Unless anyone else jumps in, I'm planning to go ahead with Thief. For those who'd like Scott to work with the Fan 4, then it sounds like there's definite room for a more Future Foundation based version of the character down the line, but, as johnny confirmed, that really isn't this one.

Originally Posted by johnny139

In general very happy with this design though! As I have been for a while. My only real criticism is that "Tricky" is kind of a broad personality for him, so I'll brainstorm a bit on alternatives.

Tricky is kind of broad, and it would be interesting to hear alternatives, but honestly, if Tricky's okay for Spider-Man, then I'm not really feeling the need to get fancy or reinvent the wheel here.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Okay, so that's two more Heroes in favour of Thief and opposed to Adventurer, for reasons I happen to agree with. Unless anyone else jumps in, I'm planning to go ahead with Thief. For those who'd like Scott to work with the Fan 4, then it sounds like there's definite room for a more Future Foundation based version of the character down the line, but, as johnny confirmed, that really isn't this one.

Tricky is kind of broad, and it would be interesting to hear alternatives, but honestly, if Tricky's okay for Spider-Man, then I'm not really feeling the need to get fancy or reinvent the wheel here.

Not sure what you meant by "two more Heroes in favour of Thief". There were 3 heroes and a Sidekick that expressed concerns 1 Hero strongly for and 1 Hero fine with Thief.

Though I don't believe any of us were strongly against thief. I just started this off by asking for an effort to be put into finding an alternative. I feel I have been heard and I feel we have explored the options. Think about it now I don't think his low cost will matter one way or the other so in this case I have no issue continuing forward with Thief. But these are the kind of things I think about and it's better to raise an alarm early and have it end up being premature rather than waiting until we are several test into the design.

Thanks for humoring me.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

Not sure what you meant by "two more Heroes in favour of Thief". There were 3 heroes and a Sidekick that expressed concerns 1 Hero strongly for and 1 Hero fine with Thief.

Though I don't believe any of us were strongly against thief. I just started this off by asking for an effort to be put into finding an alternative. I feel I have been heard and I feel we have explored the options. Think about it now I don't think his low cost will matter one way or the other so in this case I have no issue continuing forward with Thief. But these are the kind of things I think about and it's better to raise an alarm early and have it end up being premature rather than waiting until we are several test into the design.

Thanks for humoring me.

Yeah, the 'more' was most likely a bad choice of words on my part. I was posting that in response to Yodaking and johnny's support for that direction.
No problem, I'm glad you raised the alarm when you did - you're right, whatever direction we decided to take it, it was helpful to have that conversation before the design went any further. Now we can continue knowing that we've explored that direction and have worked out what we want to do rather than his class having been decided almost by default.