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  #13  
Old October 29th, 2018, 12:16 PM
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Re: Sterling Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I don't think the TSA are on the same league as stingers because the jump from 2 to 3 is bigger than the jump from 3 to 4 at range. They need to either be blockers or consistently have height to do solid. They're at their best when used like vegie did or in some kind of take 2 format.

I think they could beat blades but it's a tough matchup if blades are packing a chomp. I don't think the build OEAO suggested is what I would take if I needed to beat blades with chomp. She's very good, but a bit too chompable. I'd rather have a Hydra and use TSA as a screen, but that might not have been what orc was going for and it's still favored against blades because of the Hydra not the TSA.

~Dysole, using a lot of words to repeat what others have already said
Yeah, I was trying to build an army where it's not just "but what if I had Rats instead?" and utilize the TSA in a similar manner to the Stingers. Vegie's definitely right in that they are bad at being a range squad, they're better off screening.
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  #14  
Old October 29th, 2018, 12:31 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Flameslayer is probably the best player I've played *in person* (which is a small number, sadly). I think you're all right that he's probably off base here, but I think his competitive sense is usually up the right alleys.

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  #15  
Old October 29th, 2018, 02:08 PM
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Less Wrong

He's not incorrect that the TSA don't suck; they're fairly serviceable and feel like a fairly average unit. If anything, I think it's more underestimating the stingers because of failed stinger drain where the optimal way to play stingers involves not rolling for the drain a lot. I definitely think flameslayer is a solid player and I hope that my critique of this doesn't come across like I'm trying to diminish that.

~Dysole, thinking TSA may epitomize "jack of all trades, master of none"


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  #16  
Old October 29th, 2018, 10:49 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I think the TSA are better than they actually appear on paper, but nonetheless the Stingers are just way too good for the price. The TSA's only real advantage is the 1 extra Range, which can sometimes make a difference on certain maps. Counterstrike is situational to begin with, and with 3 Defense it doesn't activate often unless you bring Raelin or Hatamato Taro

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSentinel
Power Ranking
Hatamoto Taro- Perhaps the Ashigaru will realize Hatoís value. For now, he just isnít viable in any army. C-

edit: currently Hatamoto Taro's power ranking is F
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  #17  
Old October 29th, 2018, 11:38 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Stingers are way better. The extra attack is indeed that valuable, and draining is a better tool than Counter Strike with 3 def. Draining's payoff turns are huge swings, but you have to be willing to gamble.

Side note: I think the ability is a bit unexplored because originally it was deemed that it's better to drain very conservatively. Most people including myself do that. But Hendal drains basically every turn and has had huge success with Stingers, maybe the reward is greater than the backfire when you do it so much, because of board momentum and control? It's interesting, draining a lot might be the way to go in a lot of matchups.

TSA are decent against some melee but honestly their efficiency department doesn't really work. They have range, but with a low 2 attack and only 3 squad, so they lose to a lot of other range. But it seems being able to ping and have counterstrike makes it hard for melee...but only 3 defense doesn't do much with it, and a pinging 3 squad at 6 range doesn't do much to efficient melee, be it 4 squads and/or bonding with movement options.

They're weird, it feels like the TSA are a unit that's missing an ability or something. If they had some kind of engagement attack boost (like the 10th) or something they'd feel more realized.

But yeah Stingers are miles stronger


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  #18  
Old October 30th, 2018, 12:45 AM
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Irony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
He's not incorrect that the TSA don't suck; they're fairly serviceable and feel like a fairly average unit. If anything, I think it's more underestimating the stingers because of failed stinger drain where the optimal way to play stingers involves not rolling for the drain a lot. I definitely think flameslayer is a solid player and I hope that my critique of this doesn't come across like I'm trying to diminish that.

~Dysole, thinking TSA may epitomize "jack of all trades, master of none"
I’m gonna take a second to poke at this reply because I’m a busy bee today (pulling a 12 hour shift eats your day ).

I don’t really bother draining much, but then again, I don’t use stingers much. Too boring, and again, 3 attack still isnt special, range be damned.

Also, I do agree that Hendal is a phenomanal player, I had the joy of facing him about 2 years ago? I played Stingers in that match.

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  #19  
Old October 30th, 2018, 01:10 AM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Yeah the conventional wisdom of draining being universally a risk is probably an oversimplification of the Stinger math. It may be "less average dice" overall since you have the chance of losing attacks, but it's the three discrete outcomes that matter, not the average of them. Most people realize this when they drain when they are down and need to come back, but there are probably other situations where the discrete outcomes also play in your favor. Draining from low ground to attack high defense squads?

I hope my last post didn't off too mean; I find the comparison fun and an interesting discussion.
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  #20  
Old October 30th, 2018, 01:16 AM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
They're weird, it feels like the TSA are a unit that's missing an ability or something. If they had some kind of engagement attack boost (like the 10th) or something they'd feel more realized.

But yeah Stingers are miles stronger
I believe they originally had Bonding with Kaemon, but this was far too powerful so they nixed it. Which makes sense regarding the rarity of Ranged Bonding as well as Kaemon already being good in his own right. Perhaps they just didn't take the time to think up a replacement power. Don't quote me on that though.

They're arguably better than a lot of other 3-man ranged squads around the same price such as Marro Drudge and Aubrien Archers. But I do believe the Stingers still remain king of that type of unit. Just too strong for the cost.

~TAF, who'd argue it's even worse in home games with larger armies where one can afford the Hive or Su-Bak-Na.
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  #21  
Old October 30th, 2018, 02:35 AM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
They're weird, it feels like the TSA are a unit that's missing an ability or something. If they had some kind of engagement attack boost (like the 10th) or something they'd feel more realized.

But yeah Stingers are miles stronger
I believe they originally had Bonding with Kaemon, but this was far too powerful so they nixed it. Which makes sense regarding the rarity of Ranged Bonding as well as Kaemon already being good in his own right. Perhaps they just didn't take the time to think up a replacement power. Don't quote me on that though.
I saw this mentioned in the CUC thread when they were discussing how to change the Tagawa Samurai Archers. It always made a lot of sense to me, so I wouldn't be surprised if something along those lines was really the case.

The TSA would definitely be a very potent force if they could bond with Kaemon Awa (heck, even Hatamoto Taro would've found more use). Especially if Kato Katsuro was also early in the pipeline, I can see why it made more sense to just drop the ability altogether.

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  #22  
Old October 30th, 2018, 02:37 AM
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Drain on Resources

Unless it's a high priority kill or it's got high defense or you need to start swinging the game in your favor, I don't see the advantage to using the drain. I'd argue as the game gets more in hand, you want to drain less even in situations where it is a better idea. 3 attack is pretty okay for a melee unit but it's where range starts to be pretty good.

That said, I don't disagree that stingers are boring. Them, Q9, and 4th all feel like win boringly figures to me so I have to do weird things if I want to play them (like play 4th and Templar or Q9 and obsidians).

~Dysole, who made assumptions about drain comments from your initial post and she apologizes for that


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  #23  
Old November 2nd, 2018, 04:56 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

There was a kid who got 2nd place at the Tree Town Open III (a 60 person event) playing 3x Tagawa Samurai Archers, Krug, Kaemon, and Raelin. He lost his first game and then won 5 in a row, and the second placement criteria was Point Differential, not Strength of Schedule. So he'd have probably been more like 6th or 7th place otherwise.

Stingers* won the tournament though, and he lost his first round to a 4th Mass build.

*A now classic 2x Deathreavers, 4x Stingers, Raelin, Kaemon army.

I'd argue that the jump from 2 to 3 attack dice is the most important one in the game.

This was way back when Matthias Maccabeus was still putting ranged units in his Knights armies.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #24  
Old November 7th, 2018, 02:41 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I'm glad I stubbled upon this thread! You have me really considering TSA > Stingers.

Here's what I'm thinking:

On the surface, the Stingers are easily better than the TSA. Stingers have bonding, higher attack, ability to roll for more attack, chance to respawn, and a better cost. All of this together makes for a pretty straight forward squad that looks to do one thing - destroy!

And then we have on the other hand, the TSA. I don't know about most, but the first thing I noticed was the 2 attack. It definitely deters from drafting but examining further we see counter strike - a redeeming quality of an otherwise over looked squad unit. Interestingly, the TSA are the only Common Squad with Counter Strike in the game, traditionally something we see only amongst Unique Samurai Heroes/ Squads. You also have a comparatively superior range and an equal defense but for 5 more points.

I guess what I've tried to elude to is while it's much clearer to us how and what the stingers are used for, there may be more than meets the eye with the Samurai
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