Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Official Units
Official Units Discussion of official HeroScape units


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 28th, 2018, 12:24 AM
flameslayer93's Avatar
flameslayer93 flameslayer93 is offline
I could go
 
Join Date: December 31, 2009
Location: The Smouldercore (Cleveland, Ohio)
Posts: 6,527
Images: 92
Blog Entries: 30
flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun
Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

So, I was bored when I started to think more about the Tagawa Samurai Archers as being similar to the Marro Stingers. And then I wondered which unit is actually better. Now the consensus is that Stingers are better, but I'd like to challenge that line of thinking. With new tournament formats like Bring 2 and Cut the Cake, as well as new units if you do choose to use the C3V and SoV stuff, what was once good may now be a liability for competitive or casual play.

For reference, here are the cards for each unit.





On the surface, both units are similar. Their statlines, cost, and levels of effective synergy are around the same. The biggest difference between the two units are their attack and range. Samurai Archers has 6 range, while the Stingers have 3 attack. Oh, and the Stingers are 5 points cheaper.

Now, the Stingers do have more direct synergy options, but the Samurai Archers gift synergy to Sacred Band builds (a surprisingly decent bonding squad in formats where your opponent might have to use them). In my opinion though, the Stinger's best synergy options (besides more stingers) is the Marro Hive or maybe Torin who grants adjacent ones ranged counterstrike... Neither unit is particularly great in a competitive format, but neither are horrible when paired with Stingers either. For the Samurai Archers, neither official option is a great synergy piece. But maybe 1x of these guys with Kato will fill out your Kato+Ashigaru army. It's worth a thought. The C3V units (Raymond and Tomoe aren't too terribly much help either. At least Tomoe can get free activations from your damaged unique Samurai squads.

Both squads can "use" a screen, but neither really need it. The Samurai Archers can theoretically use said screen a bit better though, because they do have +1 Range to work with. Raelin remains a fantastic option for both squads to beef up their defense, but again, Samurai Archers use her benefits a bit better because of access to Counterstrike.

Now, I should get to the actual differences in the powers. For most competitive scenes, players tend to completely ignore Stinger Drain. This is not quite as true for Counterstrike, however. A good turn is turn in which your opponent suffers some sort of damage on your turn, or deals none or very little when it is their turn. A great turn is when your opponent loses something on their turn. Counterstrike gives you the chance to get a great turn, albeit rare.

Not using Stinger Drain means that you are using the Stingers for their stats only, which the stats are fine, but it does mean a good opponent can fight that turn easily with good defensive positioning (as Stingers have poor range and no easy way to boost it) and/or Raelin. Using Stinger Drain means that it can screw you with a 20% chance to outright lose a Stinger and lose your turn of attacks. That's a great turn for your opponent, and it's probably the main reason people will only use the Drain against things with superhuman stats (like Marvel characters). Unfortunately, losing a turn of attacks can cause the game to swing hard for your opponent, depending on when it was used. The flipside is getting a sweet +1 attack for the turn. This turns the Stingers into ranged units with 4 attack, and potentially 5 attack if they have height. Even good defensive positioning won't help too much against that level of attack score. But, most people have shyed away from that raw power to keep the Stingers consistent.

Counterstrike, on the other hand, is always active. Yes, there are units who get around it with ranged attacks of their own, special attacks, or by being samurai themselves, but that doesn't mean that the power ever stops working. For the Samurai Archers, it's a small bonus that can help swing a game or really screw up low attack figures (like Blade Gruts, Nagrubs, Spiders) when they have to attack the Archers. Or, that player can forgo attacking altogether, which helps you out too.

I'll try to add a bit more later, but I hope that I've started to convince folks to question old convention. There's plenty more to discuss again

My customs.
NE Ohio Tourney - Oct 20th 555/Bring 2
SW Ohio Tourney - Oct 27th TBD
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 28th, 2018, 01:05 AM
OrcElfArmyOne's Avatar
OrcElfArmyOne OrcElfArmyOne is offline
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Location: USA-CT-Hartford
Posts: 1,176
Images: 2
OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

TSA basically auto-lose to meta armies. 2 attack doesn't cut it. Stingers have 3 attack, which means they don't auto-lose to Heavies, Knights, Q9, Nilfheim, etc.

They're kinda interesting in non-standard formats, but they're just so easy to play that I don't see any real reason to give them to an opponent? It's just set up tethers and max range.

Edit: And Blades would much rather see TSA (although they have a good matchup vs Stingers). They get enough buffs to ignore Counter Strike and their 2 attack. Plus, Grimnak.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 28th, 2018, 01:02 PM
flameslayer93's Avatar
flameslayer93 flameslayer93 is offline
I could go
 
Join Date: December 31, 2009
Location: The Smouldercore (Cleveland, Ohio)
Posts: 6,527
Images: 92
Blog Entries: 30
flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

In my experience, 2 attack isnít much different from 3. Itís only the height advantage that makes a real difference (a consistent 2 skulls is great). Main trouble is that Stingers donít get height consistently so their attack of 3 wonít do enough against strong meta builds.

Blades have to pump a lot of points into more blades and champs to get solid results vs the TSA. Plus the TSA can split up a lot better, away from Grimmy.

Anyways, Iím not entirely sold that the TSA are better either. Just that they donít suck nearly as hard as most folks believe. Iím undecided too.

My customs.
NE Ohio Tourney - Oct 20th 555/Bring 2
SW Ohio Tourney - Oct 27th TBD
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 28th, 2018, 02:15 PM
OrcElfArmyOne's Avatar
OrcElfArmyOne OrcElfArmyOne is offline
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Location: USA-CT-Hartford
Posts: 1,176
Images: 2
OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness OrcElfArmyOne wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
In my experience, 2 attack isnít much different from 3. Itís only the height advantage that makes a real difference (a consistent 2 skulls is great). Main trouble is that Stingers donít get height consistently so their attack of 3 wonít do enough against strong meta builds.

Blades have to pump a lot of points into more blades and champs to get solid results vs the TSA. Plus the TSA can split up a lot better, away from Grimmy.

Anyways, Iím not entirely sold that the TSA are better either. Just that they donít suck nearly as hard as most folks believe. Iím undecided too.
What? Stingers do fine against meta builds, there's a reason they're meta themselves. 2 attack is much worse than 3. Stingers do often get height.

Let's make a couple Blades vs TSA theory matches here. First, we'll try straight TSA:

3x TSA 195
Raelin 80
Isamu 10

vs

3x Blades 120
Grimnak 120
Nerak 50

That's a 95-5 matchup for Blades. Grimnak makes it an auto-win. 2 attack will not be able to kill him.

So what if we give the TSA something to deal with Grimnak?

2x TSA 130
Eltahale 140
Raelin 80

vs

4x Blades 160
Grimnak 120
Nerak 50
Marcu 20

I guess that's ok? But that's only because Eltahale and Raelin are stupid good. Marcu in the end game is still scary though, and it's probably around a 60-40 matchup for Blades. Blades should be able to knock out Raelin and most of the Tags without much problem.

Point is, TSA are overcosted by a large margin, and really don't have good matchups (except against Spiders, a B squad). They are definitely a B-. 2 attack is bad. Counter Strike is situationally mediocre (unless it's Kaemon). 6 range isn't really much better than 5, the critical point is 7 to be able to outrange 4th Mass.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 28th, 2018, 02:28 PM
Lazy Orang's Avatar
Lazy Orang Lazy Orang is offline
 
Join Date: November 10, 2012
Location: British Isles
Posts: 9,196
Images: 6
Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun Lazy Orang is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I get the feeling the Tagawa Samurai Archers would be a decent unit if they were 50 points. As is, they can't compete with Stingers.


My Classic Customs
- Fiends of Folklore
=====================
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 28th, 2018, 02:37 PM
capsocrates's Avatar
capsocrates capsocrates is offline
My six-year-old sister-in-law calls the shots
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: USA - CO - Denver area
Posts: 12,696
Images: 11
capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.

A Child of the Risen Lord
--
Oklahoma HS Events - Colorado HS Events
Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV
Maps Customs Trades
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 28th, 2018, 03:32 PM
TREX's Avatar
TREX TREX is offline
"like" happy
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Location: USA- ID- PRESTON
Posts: 6,056
TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun TREX is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.
Also, when they take height and get stinger drain, 5 attack dice vs a max of 3 from the tagawa archers is not even a debate. I've seen stingers murder most of anything they want. TSA not so much. The stingers are top tier, and I dread them when I see them in an opponents build at a tournament.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 28th, 2018, 04:02 PM
flameslayer93's Avatar
flameslayer93 flameslayer93 is offline
I could go
 
Join Date: December 31, 2009
Location: The Smouldercore (Cleveland, Ohio)
Posts: 6,527
Images: 92
Blog Entries: 30
flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.
Also, when they take height and get stinger drain, 5 attack dice vs a max of 3 from the tagawa archers is not even a debate. I've seen stingers murder most of anything they want. TSA not so much. The stingers are top tier, and I dread them when I see them in an opponents build at a tournament.
And Iíve seen stingers fall flat on their face with the drain or not do much of anything when not using it. Theyíre not that great of units. At least, not much better than some of the other options in that catagory.

My customs.
NE Ohio Tourney - Oct 20th 555/Bring 2
SW Ohio Tourney - Oct 27th TBD
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 29th, 2018, 12:12 AM
vegietarian18's Avatar
vegietarian18 vegietarian18 is offline
Online HS Season 10 Champion
 
Join Date: September 5, 2011
Location: USA - IL - Peoria/Champaign
Posts: 3,928
vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death! vegietarian18 is hot lava death!
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I took Tagawa Samurai Archers to Day 2 this year but not because I thought they were underrated. Mostly the opposite actually, 3 attacks of 2 deceptively looks okay but it's actually quite bad. I think I won both of my Day 1 Reverse the Whip games because my opponents tried to use the two squads Tagawa as bread and butter offense like ranged squads typically would be. They're at their best as cost-efficient defensive blockers with some ranged utility.

I wouldn't make an army out of them or compare them to Stingers at all. Plenty of figures have close stats to each other but aren't similar in playstyle.

I think this is a great example of why theoryscaping differences in figure strength through comparison is sometimes actively misleading
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 29th, 2018, 12:44 AM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #1 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 14,331
Images: 250
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Sterling Archers

I don't think the TSA are on the same league as stingers because the jump from 2 to 3 is bigger than the jump from 3 to 4 at range. They need to either be blockers or consistently have height to do solid. They're at their best when used like vegie did or in some kind of take 2 format.

I think they could beat blades but it's a tough matchup if blades are packing a chomp. I don't think the build OEAO suggested is what I would take if I needed to beat blades with chomp. She's very good, but a bit too chompable. I'd rather have a Hydra and use TSA as a screen, but that might not have been what orc was going for and it's still favored against blades because of the Hydra not the TSA.

~Dysole, using a lot of words to repeat what others have already said


This sentence has exactly seven words.
This sentence doesn't have exactly seven words.

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old October 29th, 2018, 01:26 AM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 22,489
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I love the spirit of the OP, even if I don't agree with its conclusion. Excellent thread.

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old October 29th, 2018, 03:28 AM
Astroking112's Avatar
Astroking112 Astroking112 is online now
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: USA - TX - Dallas
Posts: 1,011
Images: 12
Blog Entries: 21
Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Astroking112 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

The Samurai are my favorite faction, so I've played quite a few game with the TSA over the years. Granted, the vast majority of my time with the game has been in a casual setting, but even there they have almost always underperformed.

As many others have already said, the difference between 2 and 3 attack is massive. The archers will whiff roughly 25% of their shots, with most of the rest rolling only 1 skull. They feel almost helpless on the offensive at times, especially since they are only a 3-person squad, unlike many other ranged options. It's pretty difficult for them to keep up with opponents who are taking turns with more figures than them (which is common in competitive formats), especially since their stats aren't anything special.

Counterstrike doesn't make up for their cost, either. It's definitely nice when it works, but it's extremely unreliable, especially with a defense of 3. The TSA can definitely do some good work against melee squads when backed by Raelin, but against most other armies, they don't really have a good answer.

I do feel like they're on the cusp of being pretty good, though. Had they been made with 6 move like the Izumi and Tagawa Samurai, been given 4 defense, or been priced 10 points lower, I think that we would see them in use a lot more often than we do now. As it stands, though, they're just kind of mediocre: not the worst thing in the game, but not great, either.

Proud Member of Platyfly!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > Official Units
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
imperiums and samurai archers $20 jojo4 Sightings and Sales 0 December 3rd, 2010 01:45 PM
does anyone have stingers and tagawa samurai archers? I LIKE PI! HeroScape General Discussion 2 October 11th, 2009 10:16 PM
Unit Debate #8 -- Aubrien Archers Vs. Tagawa Samurai Archers MegaSilver Official Units 22 July 26th, 2009 02:11 PM
Tagawa Samurai Archers as Gladiators The Orange Mailman Custom Units & Army Cards 4 May 20th, 2009 10:49 PM
tagawaga samurai archers dragonfire Official Units 22 June 19th, 2007 01:22 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:35 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.