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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #49  
Old June 9th, 2017, 10:00 PM
vvildeyedjoker vvildeyedjoker is offline
 
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Re: Request for Workshopping

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Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
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Originally Posted by vvildeyedjoker View Post
I was hoping to get feedback on this one. I personally liked this one better then my other one but I would like to hear the judges opinion.

Looking at the other submissions I'm thinking it is a little small. Also the two Glyphs so close together would be a hard nut to crack if one side took both, i guess it just didn't happen enough in play testing for me to think about it.

Title: Tree of Might

Author: VVildeyedjoker

Req: 1 Rotv, 1 RttFF, 1 TJ
Spoiler Alert!
Like Sir Heroscape said, the 7-hexer was the main concern, along with the congestion issues the map presented. A few other issues I noted were:
There's a heavy glyph imbalance - one side has easier access to one of the glyphs than the other. This is heightened by the fact that the Defense glyph is much better than the Unique Attack glyph, so whoever is closer to it is going to have a distinct advantage.
I was also pretty worried about left-right flow on the map. In the middle of the map, there are only the two one-hex wide bridges going across. Even close to the start zones, the 7-hex high ground is a road block to movement. Those points don't really allow the map to breathe as much as it should.
The map itself isn't super big, but it does take a lot of movement to traverse. Making better paths would help that.

Overall I like the look of it and think it has some great potential. It's kind of reminiscent of Invasion in the BoV. You did a great job at spreading the jungle around for good cover (although it's all next to fairly high ground - on this map I don't think it's as bad of an issue but usually you'll want it on even lower ground). As-is there is plenty that I both like and don't like about this map, but I do think that with some work it can be a really great map!
If we rework these to try to re-balance them do they still have to follow the format of the contest they were entered into?

For example if I wanted to move the glyphs out of the middle of my Tree of might map and put them somewhere else on the map could I? Even though for the contest it was required to be in the Wellspring?
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  #50  
Old June 9th, 2017, 11:13 PM
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Re: Request for Workshopping

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Originally Posted by vvildeyedjoker View Post
If we rework these to try to re-balance them do they still have to follow the format of the contest they were entered into?

For example if I wanted to move the glyphs out of the middle of my Tree of might map and put them somewhere else on the map could I? Even though for the contest it was required to be in the Wellspring?
Yes. The challenge of building a balanced map with those parameters should hold true for everyone. Have no fear...it can be done! Keep in mind, it wasn't so much the positioning of the Glyphs that was the issue for your map but rather the tight choke points and height issues. Focus on fixing those and you should be golden.
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  #51  
Old June 10th, 2017, 01:05 AM
vvildeyedjoker vvildeyedjoker is offline
 
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Re: Request for Workshopping

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvildeyedjoker View Post
If we rework these to try to re-balance them do they still have to follow the format of the contest they were entered into?

For example if I wanted to move the glyphs out of the middle of my Tree of might map and put them somewhere else on the map could I? Even though for the contest it was required to be in the Wellspring?
Yes. The challenge of building a balanced map with those parameters should hold true for everyone. Have no fear...it can be done! Keep in mind, it wasn't so much the positioning of the Glyphs that was the issue for your map but rather the tight choke points and height issues. Focus on fixing those and you should be golden.
That's fine I was playing with a couple ideas and wanted to see if that was an option. Thanks
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  #52  
Old June 14th, 2017, 01:36 AM
vvildeyedjoker vvildeyedjoker is offline
 
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Request for Review



Here is what I have worked up to try and make Tree of Might more competitive. I'll try to cover the changes below.

My intentions for this map is to balance it out for competitive play. It may not reach full tournament worthiness but I hope to get it close enough for at least casual competitive games.

1. Moved the 7 hex's near the start away from the start zones and used them to spread the map out. Overall height of the map is lowered but more strategically placed to encourage play across the map.

2. With the open space added by moving the 7's I moved the trees and bushes around to make it feel less congested but still offer cover. I also added a few more paths to cross the map easier laterally.

3. I moved trees into the straight path on the "close glyph" side to make it more balanced for each side by forcing them to travel around the tree. I think they are both 2 turns away with a 5-6 move character. Flying would gain an advantage from going over the tree but it would still take the two turns.

4. Lowered the strength of the glyphs so it wasnt an absolute to fight over the middle. (I'm very bad at choosing glyphs. I am open to suggestions for which to trade out with)

I look forward to the feedback. I feel like I have learned so much over the course of this contest and hope to keep learning.

Last edited by vvildeyedjoker; June 14th, 2017 at 01:39 AM. Reason: Changed the layout of the post.
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  #53  
Old June 14th, 2017, 01:00 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

@vvildeyedjoker it's looking better and I think you're starting to get there, but I'd like to see it get a little more work, so for now I vote to review...and here's why:
  • The sand/rock pieces seem out of place. Aesthetically it's not as appealing when it seems the hexes were added to fill space and not for a purpose. I feel the rock and sand pieces aren't really placed to make the map make sense. Random pockets of sand seems odd and the rock feels like it was just added to the sides to give more room. Sand is sometimes hard to fit into a maps Aesthetic appeal, so I often use it to build up the height and cover it up. This doesn't effect map balance of course, but I think a map should catch the eye too. So that's just me. On to the more important stuff...
  • The Road. There are two suspended 2-hexes to the right of the bridge wall. That needs fixing. Also, the road pathing seems forced. It's doesn't help the overall development of my army as much as it would be used for a quick startzone rush (depending on the build). I think the road could be better utilized to get armies in the move. That, or don't use it at all. Remember with map building sometimes less is more. Do you really need a road in the middle of a Wild Jungle (your backstory)? Does it make sense that a road should be circling the Great Tree? If it's a path through the Jungle, make it feel more like a path.
  • Too Big/wide. I think you went from too small to too big/wide...so let's find the balance. It's not terribly large, but you are starting to push the boundary. This map would be very hard to transport (prebuilt) as well as fit on a tournament playing table. These are practical things to keep in mind, even if it's the coolest map ever, tournament directors will want maps that are easy to transport (when prebuilt) and fit well on a table. But that's not the only reason, because when a map is too big, sometimes it's hard for the whole map to get played. In my opinion, the best maps are maps where you run over the entire thing fighting back and forth and using every nook and cranny of hex. The other problem could be podding armies that take one Hill and wait it out. Remember tournaments are competitive, so even though it may not be fun to do, opponents will sometimes sit and wait to be attacked rather than loose position. A my Hill your Hill situation. Also, from those hills a ranged army with range 6 can cover the glyph and therefore keep an advantage over the glyph on their side of the hill.

Lots of things to consider, but you're getting there..keep up the good work.

Other judges? @BiggaBullfrog @Tiranx @TREX
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  #54  
Old June 14th, 2017, 02:53 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Size and stability are a big factor. If the map isn't stable, transporting it and playing on it are a pain. If the map is too big: It will not get the whole area of the battlefield played, and it will be hard to transport or fit on a tournament table. In my opinion, players playing on this map have really no reason to run to the sides except for it they want to camp out on the highest parts of the map. This map feels like you would charge for the road, rush to take glyphs or try to bomb the enemy from the middle of the map as it is the most easily accessible. It seems like the map is very large in the sense that if you have 4-5 move characters that don't fly. It will take the entire first round to get to the glyphs. This makes it flow less smoothly. Characters will not use the sides unless its a last ditch effort to camp on high ground because they are getting beaten. Its still out of the way enough that it would less likely be used as the glyph area is much more appealing. Biggest thing wrong here is the size. I'm not sure how you theme comes across. Utilize the terrain, so that it gets used. Glyph placement helps out there. Hope that helps.
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  #55  
Old June 14th, 2017, 04:45 PM
vvildeyedjoker vvildeyedjoker is offline
 
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Re: Workshop Thread

Thanks for the feedback! Back to the drawing board.
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  #56  
Old June 14th, 2017, 10:11 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I'm glad to see you resubmitting this map, vvildeyedjoker. I think it has some cool potential. That said, I've got to echo what my fellow judges have said in that it's still not there yet. Hopefully it's not too frustrating to hear us bounce back and forth (too tight, too big), but finding the balance of things is a huge part of map making, so please bear with us!

That said, I'd like to clear up what may have been a misunderstanding between us and you when you were getting feedback. We did talk about how tight the pathing on the map was and how easily congested it would be. This was caused by a lot of 1-hex pathways going through the map, created mainly by jungle pieces and the road walls. Even though there were a lot, those small paths are easily clogged and controlled by two of the most competitive armies - Rats/Raelin/Range and 'Trons - meaning they'll dominate on the map. That's why we'll bring that up as an issue.
So your second draft has a lot more open space, but as the other judges mentioned, it's gotten too wide. It's got a lot of flat ground that isn't doing much for the map. Like we said, there's a balance to be reached, but where I think the misunderstanding came in was us not relaying how close your first draft was to being great. It doesn't need to jump to clear open spaces. Rather, it just needed some tweaking and fiddling, opening up a path here and there, and moving that 7-hex to a more strategic location. Also, this is just me talking, but I would take out the road walls that you have in the map. All they're really doing is causing congestion and keeping units from moving around the map as well as they want to. But that's up to you. I also preferred the placement of your jungle pieces in the first draft - they were placed well enough to pretty much guarantee that units will have cover when skirting the edges. Naturally, when you open things up, the placement will probably have to change, but I would go for the same effect.

Again, thanks for being willing to workshop with us! I'm excited for the future of your map!
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  #57  
Old June 14th, 2017, 10:50 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I second Bigga's clarification...he's right on point. Your first map just needed some minor adjustments not a complete overhaul...I apologize for not being clearer myself.
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  #58  
Old June 15th, 2017, 01:00 AM
vvildeyedjoker vvildeyedjoker is offline
 
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
I'm glad to see you resubmitting this map, vvildeyedjoker. I think it has some cool potential. That said, I've got to echo what my fellow judges have said in that it's still not there yet. Hopefully it's not too frustrating to hear us bounce back and forth (too tight, too big), but finding the balance of things is a huge part of map making, so please bear with us!

That said, I'd like to clear up what may have been a misunderstanding between us and you when you were getting feedback. We did talk about how tight the pathing on the map was and how easily congested it would be. This was caused by a lot of 1-hex pathways going through the map, created mainly by jungle pieces and the road walls. Even though there were a lot, those small paths are easily clogged and controlled by two of the most competitive armies - Rats/Raelin/Range and 'Trons - meaning they'll dominate on the map. That's why we'll bring that up as an issue.
So your second draft has a lot more open space, but as the other judges mentioned, it's gotten too wide. It's got a lot of flat ground that isn't doing much for the map. Like we said, there's a balance to be reached, but where I think the misunderstanding came in was us not relaying how close your first draft was to being great. It doesn't need to jump to clear open spaces. Rather, it just needed some tweaking and fiddling, opening up a path here and there, and moving that 7-hex to a more strategic location. Also, this is just me talking, but I would take out the road walls that you have in the map. All they're really doing is causing congestion and keeping units from moving around the map as well as they want to. But that's up to you. I also preferred the placement of your jungle pieces in the first draft - they were placed well enough to pretty much guarantee that units will have cover when skirting the edges. Naturally, when you open things up, the placement will probably have to change, but I would go for the same effect.

Again, thanks for being willing to workshop with us! I'm excited for the future of your map!
I don't mind the back and forth at all. That is exactly what I was hoping for when I entered the contest. I have a little notebook by the side of my desk with points to look for when building my maps now (like the rats/raelin thing) I'm new to the competitive seen and just flat out don't know that kind of stuff.

My heroscape experience has mostly been with huge maps and long story/scenarios. So things like congested areas to fight through or large high ground was something I used as a good thing to add to the objectives and story. As far as size of maps goes my average map before this was planned to fill up a pool table so that will take a little bit to get a feel for. So the feed back you guys are giving me really helps me to understand the whole picture instead of just bullet points.

TL : DR The competitive scene has added so much life to my game nights and I appreciate all of you sharing your wisdom with me.

Last edited by vvildeyedjoker; June 15th, 2017 at 01:00 AM. Reason: spacing
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  #59  
Old June 15th, 2017, 01:43 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Here is Tree of Might 1.2

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  #60  
Old June 15th, 2017, 05:08 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Here is A Couple Puddles 1.2



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