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  #637  
Old April 25th, 2020, 12:24 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Could you have convinced Austria to throw the solo to you? Feels like you could have. Diplomacy isn't all about X's and O's.
I don't know, as I said I thought England was in the driver seat that last year or three with the significant center advantage, and the tougher time I had in taking over Turkey.

I was terrified if I approached Austria about it, that info would get fed right back England, and that would be a diplomatic nightmare, tipping England to press their naval advantage at my home centers.
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  #638  
Old April 25th, 2020, 12:52 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post

@scorpiusx I thought you had some mid-game opportunities to go for the solo, but near the end of the game, I thought you were super weak around Sil, I will have to really look at the map, but I think France could have soloed given how weak you were there. I won't get to it today.

Also, on a personal level, ghosting someone in a game of diplomacy is a real jerk move. I am not happy with you over that. Very disrespectful, tis a game we are playing after all.

In the aftermath, I do feel much better about my elimination knowing that there was no solo.

I was honestly concerned about France gunning for the solo at the end, especially since I felt Austria was more likely to side with France than me, but it certainly wasn't a sure thing as I could have held out long enough to build a bunch of fleets to attack the relatively weaker western side of the map. It is unclear exactly what the outcome of it would be, though kevindola and I both thought we were more likely to lose than to win if the other tried for the solo at that stage.


As for ghosting you...that to me was simple. I had clearly betrayed you and it was obvious I was attacking you. Any communication would have been a hollow facade, but to me it felt more like a waste of my time and energy, and an insult to your intelligence if I kept trying to maintain good relations with you while constantly plotting for your downfall. "Hey Germany, lovely weather we're having today. Gee, sorry for helping take out that last supply center of yours, but I swear that I am going to help you take over France really soon!" Would you have preferred that over radio silence?


And if you want to say I didn't give you the chance to change your mind...France just seemed more trust-able and genuine in 1901 than you did. With France I felt like there was a mutual interest of forming a trusting diplomatic relationship full of understanding. With you I felt more like I was getting schmoozed. I had essentially made up my mind and was committed to sticking to it. You could argue this made me inflexible, but to me I think it made me look more trustworthy to my allies, and more focused on winning the battles ahead of me.



Honestly, I didn't talk with people much this game really, outside of France. I had pretty heavy correspondence with Russia when we did a 3 way attack on Germany, but after turning on him I was basically insulated with only France, minus the occasional nod to Austria when France convinced Austria that we could totally arrange a 3 way draw.


Does that make me a poor Diplomat? Perhaps, but whatever I did, it worked well enough to help me achieve my goal from the start, which was either to win solo or win with a close partner I had fun with the whole game. I'm glad you can derive pleasure or satisfaction from losing the game you played due to how it finished, while I can enjoy achieving the goal I set out to do from the outset. Perhaps we were playing two very different games.



Also, I find telling someone to go eat a bag of dicks to be far more disrespectful than cutting off communication, but perhaps I am not well enough versed in Diplomacy etiquette to have a firm commentary on that. ^


-scorp

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  #639  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:20 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
@MegaSilver - dude, I gave you Sweden, then you went ahead and built up the EF alliance by taking my legs out. I got lots more to say about this, but writing was on the wall what would happen to you after you took me out.
Oh, about that. England and I already arranged for me to take Sweden well before you brought it up to me (several days {or a week?} before you brought it up). I took it as an opportunity to trick you into trusting me.
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  #640  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:22 PM
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MegaSilver MegaSilver is offline
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by scorpiusx View Post
As for ghosting you...that to me was simple. I had clearly betrayed you and it was obvious I was attacking you. Any communication would have been a hollow facade, but to me it felt more like a waste of my time and energy, and an insult to your intelligence if I kept trying to maintain good relations with you while constantly plotting for your downfall. "Hey Germany, lovely weather we're having today. Gee, sorry for helping take out that last supply center of yours, but I swear that I am going to help you take over France really soon!" Would you have preferred that over radio silence?
Yeah, same reason I ghosted some people.

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Originally Posted by scorpiusx View Post
Also, I find telling someone to go eat a bag of dicks to be far more disrespectful than cutting off communication, but perhaps I am not well enough versed in Diplomacy etiquette to have a firm commentary on that. ^


-scorp
Oh god that correspondence was so funny. XD And sending that fake message was icing on top. Very scorp RP.
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  #641  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:27 PM
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Kinseth Kinseth is offline
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
@MegaSilver - dude, I gave you Sweden, then you went ahead and built up the EF alliance by taking my legs out. I got lots more to say about this, but writing was on the wall what would happen to you after you took me out.
Oh, about that. England and I already arranged for me to take Sweden well before you brought it up to me (several days {or a week?} before you brought it up). I took it as an opportunity to trick you into trusting me.
Oh I wasn't tricked by it, I was hoping to gain your trust by giving you Sweden, given how England opened to the north, which clearly signaled an EF alliance, and an EF alliance spells doom for Russia. I just don't understand how you didn't see what would happen to Russia after Germany was eliminated, based on the trust that was well established between E and F. They DMZ'd the Channel, which takes a loads of trust, and England opened to NWG

Then in S02, he moves a fleet into NWG followed up by a fleet into NWY in F02, I'd have gotten some kind of DMZ if I were you about those if you are going to get into bed with England as Russia.

I knew that after the DMZ of the Channel, I was in trouble. A bounce in the Channel would have let me know I had a chance.

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  #642  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:36 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
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Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
@MegaSilver - dude, I gave you Sweden, then you went ahead and built up the EF alliance by taking my legs out. I got lots more to say about this, but writing was on the wall what would happen to you after you took me out.
Oh, about that. England and I already arranged for me to take Sweden well before you brought it up to me (several days {or a week?} before you brought it up). I took it as an opportunity to trick you into trusting me.
Oh I wasn't tricked by it, I was hoping to gain your trust by giving you Sweden, given how England opened to the north, which clearly signaled an EF alliance, and an EF alliance spells doom for Russia. I just don't understand how you didn't see what would happen to Russia after Germany was eliminated, based on the trust that was well established between E and F. They DMZ'd the Channel, which takes a loads of trust, and England opened to NWG

Then in S02, he moves a fleet into NWG followed up by a fleet into NWY in F02, I'd have gotten some kind of DMZ if I were you about those if you are going to get into bed with England as Russia.

I knew that after the DMZ of the Channel, I was in trouble. A bounce in the Channel would have let me know I had a chance.

Well, this was my first game of Diplomacy, and I thought I had a solid alliance with England.

TBH, Politicking as you would call it is not my strong suite, and I'm surprised I did as well as I did here.
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  #643  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:38 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

@MegaSilver ah thought you played before. Fair enough.

You are now all the wiser for the next one!

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  #644  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:42 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
@MegaSilver ah thought you played before. Fair enough.

You are now all the wiser for the next one!
Well naturally I wanted to say I played before in the game. Or at least hint that I have lol.
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  #645  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:45 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post

Oh I wasn't tricked by it, I was hoping to gain your trust by giving you Sweden, given how England opened to the north, which clearly signaled an EF alliance, and an EF alliance spells doom for Russia. I just don't understand how you didn't see what would happen to Russia after Germany was eliminated, based on the trust that was well established between E and F. They DMZ'd the Channel, which takes a loads of trust, and England opened to NWG

Then in S02, he moves a fleet into NWG followed up by a fleet into NWY in F02, I'd have gotten some kind of DMZ if I were you about those if you are going to get into bed with England as Russia.

I knew that after the DMZ of the Channel, I was in trouble. A bounce in the Channel would have let me know I had a chance.

In @MegaSilver 's defense, I don't think you're accounting for the full diplomatic state of the map and who had leverage where.


From the gun, it was very clear Turkey and Austria were creating a joint attack against Russia from the south. Russia would obviously be unable to hold off against both with its starting troops, nor will it be able to gobble up territory down south. So what does that leave? The Scandinavian territories, and Germany are where it can regain supply centers that it lost from the southern attack.


Like you said, Germany was under attack from a joint English/French attack. What could Germany possibly offer Russia while getting pounded from the west? I doubt you had the manpower to help Russia take Norway from me, and that was the only center close by that you did not own (other than letting him into Sweden obviously, which if you didn't do that you would really screw up diplomatic relations with Brother Bear.)


Sensing that Russia was going to be in desperate need of supply centers wherever he could get them while being attack from the south, I saw that he was going to make for a very trustworthy ally. And that is why I proposed he join up with me against Germany. I would straight up give him Denmark, and allow him to get another build to allocate to the southern front to hold off the Turkish/Austrian alliance, and then help carve up the rest of Germany.


We can nitpick at some of Russia's exact orders, (for one I never expected him to vacate Denmark after I helped him take it, for instance), but the finer point of things was that allying with me was the only chance Russia had this game. Helping the Germans would have signaled a slow death with no progress. Helping me carve you up put him in a vulnerable position, but at least there was an opportunity for expansion and a way out.


It's all about leverage @Kinseth , and reading the board state. ^



-scorp

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  #646  
Old April 25th, 2020, 01:48 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post

@Ranior curious to your opinion here.
I had peaked at the game multiple times and it was hard to say. I likely would have gone for the solo in France's shoes and probably been happy to take the draw in Englands, but it also would have depended a lot on the diplomacy at the end of the game and if/who I thought would be willing to help throw the solo either way. Still I generally go for a solo if I think I have any shot of it, unless I'm quite sure that I'll lose to someone else's solo and then take the draw. Mostly though I feel I am settling for a draw.

Listening to scorp and kd, it does seem the two of them are a bit closer to the end of the spectrum where they see this as a shared and joint win (which it is) versus having to settle for a sub par result because they couldn't quite get the win. Ultimately that is fine though--not everyone is as solo hungry and that is part of the nature of the game as well. (Although it is why I prefer tournament scoring systems like C-diplo which I think gives very appropriate weighting to solos versus draws)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Yeah, I would definitely have tried, but I thought the opposite of you guys. But maybe I was too close and looking at the worst case scenarios. I thought I could gain an advantage through the black Sea but it would take me two full years to see it through

Meanwhile fleet builds at London and Liverpool would guarantee England MAO in 1912. And from there I wouldn't have fleet defenses in place to protect WES and therefore TUN and the Italian Coast. I maybe could have taken SEV in that time, but not if he blocked me at ARM and Denmark made it to MOS. Then I would have to count on taking BUL before I lost Tunisia and I thought that wouldn't happen.
Towards the very end this may be true. Truthfully in the abstract I tend not to love allying with England as France precisely because England's naval advantage usually spells trouble for trying to get the upper hand in the end game, and with the fact there is no good stalemate line for that duo, I'm always a bit nervous if I think I'm working with a competent England as France.

My personal feeling is that if you were a bit more focused during the lead up to the end on securing the solo you may have found a way to position things to achieve it...but I get how it is a gamble, especially if you weren't sure how the other powers in the game would react. If you felt that the remaining players might aid England to a solo instead of helping you, I get your play...but if you thought you had the diplomatic edge I probably would have pushed it and seen if I could get the solo.

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  #647  
Old April 25th, 2020, 06:22 PM
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Re: Diplomacy

Congrats France and England!

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Originally Posted by scorpiusx View Post
Italy: @Zetsubo
Indeed

I wasn't much of a fan of starting in the middle of everyone, but I tried to make the best of it. France never seemed to have an opening I could exploit, and I was worried about Turkey and Russia teaming up against me if I took out Austria. Perhaps I made some mistakes, but that's ok cause it was a fun game!


Quote:
Originally Posted by megasilver View Post
But all in all, Italy was the most consistent ally I had throughout
Thanks! But to be fair, I tried to keep my 'allies' in check by leaking bits of their plans to their neighbors, hoping to find someway to break through. Still didn't work out for me though.
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  #648  
Old April 25th, 2020, 09:24 PM
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kevindola kevindola is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Congrats France and England!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpiusx View Post
Italy: @Zetsubo
Indeed

I wasn't much of a fan of starting in the middle of everyone, but I tried to make the best of it. France never seemed to have an opening I could exploit, and I was worried about Turkey and Russia teaming up against me if I took out Austria. Perhaps I made some mistakes, but that's ok cause it was a fun game!


Quote:
Originally Posted by megasilver View Post
But all in all, Italy was the most consistent ally I had throughout
Thanks! But to be fair, I tried to keep my 'allies' in check by leaking bits of their plans to their neighbors, hoping to find someway to break through. Still didn't work out for me though.
I think you played well Zets! Hopefully no hard feelings for my stabbery. The only thing I would suggest, and perhaps it couldn't be helped, is that I know you had trouble getting back to people timely. That made some coordination hard, and I know that for me, when I had been thinking hardest about stabbing England (when he built that London fleet), it was tough because I didn't feel like I could get the best plans made with you.

Last edited by Dysole; April 26th, 2020 at 01:10 AM.
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