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View Poll Results: Is C3V/SoV (VC) a part of the canon of Heroscape.
Yes. 30 66.67%
No. 15 33.33%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old March 12th, 2014, 04:42 PM
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Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
I don't really care about the C3V/SoV units and I know I'm not the only one. They are not canon. They are not official. They are customs. Well-designed and tested, they may be, but I will never accept them as anywhere on par with official releases.

Almost 1 year ago, this issue was discussed (and a Pool created) here. The B.I.V's reference to "canon" is clearly in response to this post by Dadscaper from that thread, and the s it received:

The word you are looking for, kolakoski, is "canon."

Canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.

The C3V and SoV units are now part of the Heroscape canon, in my humble opinion. "Official"? No. Canonic? Yes.

which was itself a response to the third item in the Poll:

1. "Official" is forever exclusively Hasbro (or its predecessors/successors) manufactured units.

2.
At some point in the future, if C3V/SoV can be trusted to produce units of comparable quality to "official" units, it would be acceptable to treat them as "official," and call them such.

3. Some other word should be found to codify the distinction between customs "vetted" by the C3V/SoV and the plethora of "unvetted" customs out there.

4. C3V/SoV can be trusted to produce, has produced, and will produce, units of comparable quality to "official" units, and are worthy of being called "official" now.

The results of that Poll were:

Never. 15 17.24%
Possibly yes - later. 5 5.75%
Find a different word. 45 51.72%
Yes - now.
36 41.38%

Just to see where we are, now that Dad has provided us with the aforementioned ed word, I've created a new Poll:

1. C3V/SoV (VC) is part of the canon of Heroscape.

2.
C3V/SoV (VC) is not part of the canon of Heroscape.


"We didn't go to Islandscape!"

Last edited by kolakoski; March 12th, 2014 at 04:50 PM.
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  #2  
Old March 12th, 2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Voted no for the sole reason that some of the liberties taken with the heroscape lore, namely Vydar's Betrayal. I don't see it happening in the lore personally and only would have accepted it if it had been Hasbro planned since it was their lore and theirs to decide what happened. I may be convinced that the VC figures are canonical but not the VC lore and story that is evolving.

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  #3  
Old March 12th, 2014, 04:58 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Call it Tomato or Tomato the whole idea is should we consider customs official.

I vote no...even though some of these are brilliantly tested, thought out and used extensively at my place (especially Haduc and Zombie Hulk). They will still not be considered 'official', canon or any other word that means something similar.

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Last edited by AMIS; March 12th, 2014 at 04:59 PM. Reason: There's a reason the custom section contains C3V
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  #4  
Old March 12th, 2014, 05:00 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Voted no for the sole reason that some of the liberties taken with the heroscape lore, namely Vydar's Betrayal. I don't see it happening in the lore personally and only would have accepted it if it had been Hasbro planned since it was their lore and theirs to decide what happened. I may be convinced that the VC figures are canonical but not the VC lore and story that is evolving.
Vydar's Betrayal did happen in the original Heroscape lore, unless you don't think the story and lore from the D&D is canonical. Which I can totally understand.

While I agree that an evolution of the storyline would not be very canonical, it would be cool and I would totally overlook it with all the high quality units that have been released by VC. They seem very professional and in some rare cases more canonical as stats and abilities than some of the original units.

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  #5  
Old March 12th, 2014, 05:13 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Voted no for the sole reason that some of the liberties taken with the heroscape lore, namely Vydar's Betrayal. I don't see it happening in the lore personally and only would have accepted it if it had been Hasbro planned since it was their lore and theirs to decide what happened. I may be convinced that the VC figures are canonical but not the VC lore and story that is evolving.
Vydar's Betrayal did happen in the original Heroscape lore, unless you don't think the story and lore from the D&D is canonical. Which I can totally understand.

While I agree that an evolution of the storyline would not be very canonical, it would be cool and I would totally overlook it with all the high quality units that have been released by VC. They seem very professional and in some rare cases more canonical as stats and abilities than some of the original units.
Really? Honestly I didn't know the lore was continued through the D&D stuff other than the little bit about Valkrill's creation. I guess I need to brush up on the D&D stuff, but still any new lore I am not really for, figures are still amazing for gameplay regardless.

"Hello my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."~Inigo Montoya.


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  #6  
Old March 12th, 2014, 05:25 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

I voted yes due to the fact that, the classic lore will never be continued, so we have to make due with what we have, which really is incredible. If no liberties are ever taken with the storyline, then we will have a super boring story that never goes anywhere, so I'm a huge fan of the direction C3V has taken it.

That said, if classic scape is somehow re-booted, I think I would agree that the lore would restart from the original ending point.
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  #7  
Old March 12th, 2014, 06:03 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.
If this is the exact definition of canon, then I don't think there is much argument that C3V/SoV is not canon. Strictly speaking, if they follow the same "rules, principles, or standards" of Heroscape, which I feel they demonstrably do, then they are canon under this definition.

However, canon has at the very least different connotations if even adhering to the same definition. Typically, canonical work is only associated to come from the creators or those whose work is expressly acknowledged by the creators or owners of a particular property. If, for instance, I gather a team of writers who flawlessly write episodes for the original Star Trek to the point where they can fit seamlessly among them, they would by all means fall under this definition of canon. However, I think you'd lose most people in saying these episodes would be part of the Star Trek canon and not just some truly exceptional fan-fic.

In this respect, given the canon (as in rules and principles) of Heroscape design, I see it as hard to argue that C3V/SoV isn't continuing that with their work. However, I think there is an aspect of mutual influence being expected between different works within the same canon. In effect, things that happened earlier within a work are cast in a different light when viewed later by the things that have proceeded it. For instance, if a story had a character later perform some act of betrayal, all their previous actions will be cast through the lens of what those actions led to. In this particular case, I would say that Official Heroscape design influences all C3V/SoV work but I don't believe that we can truly claim that Official Heroscape design is influenced by C3V/SoV from a canonical stance.

In the end, this is an exceedingly pedantic argument and I still think the Heroscape is canon at the very least by a strict reading of the definition. From my perspective, I am perfectly satisfied having volunteer game designers continue the game instead of paid ones and keep this game that I love alive.
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  #8  
Old March 12th, 2014, 06:31 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

I voted no, even though I really wanted to vote "it doesn't matter." Is it in the spirit of the canon? Yes. Is it as close as we'll get to a continuation of the canon? Yes. Are they well-tested, fun designs? Yes. Do you want to keep playing them? Up to you. Will they ever be "official," or accepted as "canon" by everyone? No. So why worry? Heroscape is a big tent, with lots of different ways to approach the game and play the game. VC/C3V/SoV is an evolution of the game, just like C3G is, just like anyone who makes a custom is introducing new ideas into the game (good, bad, and ugly.) Arguments about whether D&D waves should be "canon," or whether you should really have Captain America in an army with the Airborne Elite -- at the end of the day, does it really matter? We have fun playing the game we want to play it, and if that means you want to use Delta pricing or CUC units and I don't, or that I would never put Jandar and Utgar units in the same army but you don't care about the story, whatever. There are 218 units made by Hasbro etc., and hundreds of great customs, and a thousand ways to play. Play on, I say, and let the labels fall!
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  #9  
Old March 12th, 2014, 07:09 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Voted no for the sole reason that some of the liberties taken with the heroscape lore, namely Vydar's Betrayal. I don't see it happening in the lore personally and only would have accepted it if it had been Hasbro planned since it was their lore and theirs to decide what happened. I may be convinced that the VC figures are canonical but not the VC lore and story that is evolving.
Vydar's Betrayal did happen in the original Heroscape lore, unless you don't think the story and lore from the D&D is canonical. Which I can totally understand.

While I agree that an evolution of the storyline would not be very canonical, it would be cool and I would totally overlook it with all the high quality units that have been released by VC. They seem very professional and in some rare cases more canonical as stats and abilities than some of the original units.
Really? Honestly I didn't know the lore was continued through the D&D stuff other than the little bit about Valkrill's creation. I guess I need to brush up on the D&D stuff, but still any new lore I am not really for, figures are still amazing for gameplay regardless.
The betrayal was outlined in the last released Lost Scenario, the Shadow Cavern from The Guru; C3V & SoV are only following established lore.

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Last edited by Son of Arathorn; March 12th, 2014 at 09:04 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2014, 07:27 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Now if the question was "Does VC fit with the established canon?" I'm guessing the answer would be a lot more skewed towards "yes" than it is. Obviously, if Hasbro/WoTC were to pick up the game and start where they left off, their new stuff would trump VC canon. So in that sense, maybe it's not canon. But is VC canon a legitimate path the original designers could have followed? I think so.
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Old March 12th, 2014, 08:52 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
Voted no for the sole reason that some of the liberties taken with the heroscape lore, namely Vydar's Betrayal. I don't see it happening in the lore personally and only would have accepted it if it had been Hasbro planned since it was their lore and theirs to decide what happened. I may be convinced that the VC figures are canonical but not the VC lore and story that is evolving.
Vydar's Betrayal did happen in the original Heroscape lore, unless you don't think the story and lore from the D&D is canonical. Which I can totally understand.

While I agree that an evolution of the storyline would not be very canonical, it would be cool and I would totally overlook it with all the high quality units that have been released by VC. They seem very professional and in some rare cases more canonical as stats and abilities than some of the original units.
Really? Honestly I didn't know the lore was continued through the D&D stuff other than the little bit about Valkrill's creation. I guess I need to brush up on the D&D stuff, but still any new lore I am not really for, figures are still amazing for gameplay regardless.
The betrayal was outlined in the last released Lost Scenario, the Shadow Cavern from The Guru; C3V & SoV are only following established lore.
I tried the link, but my computer said it needs to be updated so I was unable to get to where I think it was meant to take me.

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  #12  
Old March 12th, 2014, 09:04 PM
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Re: Is C3V/SoV Part of the Heroscape Canon?

My bad. The Shadow Cavern link can be found at the end of The Guru's post.

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