C3G Legacy LibraryThis is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.
Hence my choice of "any" in the first instance, yes. You could flip the order:
CELLULAR DEGENERATION
For the entire game, you must place 1 Wound Marker on any Clone Experiment you control after taking a turn with that Clone Experiment, and on all Clone Experiments you control at the end of each round.
I think that squeezes out the ambiguity... a bit longer than my first version but still relatively short.
Hand of fate is moving and the finger points to you
...Iron Maiden - The Wicker Man
SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = INSANE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 4
LIFE = 4
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 265?
EXPERIMENTAL CLONING 15
Before placing Order Markers for any round, you may choose any previously destroyed Unique Human, Mutate, or Clone Hero and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 15 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from the chosen Hero’s Army Card and place the chosen Hero on any empty space adjacent to Jackal. If the chosen Hero was a Clone, place 2 Wound Markers on its card. You now control the chosen Hero, and it has the species of Clone and the class of Experiment instead of what is listed on its card.
DRUG TIPPED CLAWS
After attacking an adjacent figure with Jackal's normal attack, if the defending figure received one or more wounds but was not destroyed, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 12 or higher, remove one Order Marker at random from the defending figure's card. Androids, Constructs, and Destructible Objects are not affected by Drug Tipped Claws.
CELLULAR DEGENERATION
For the entire game, you must place 1 Wound Marker on any Clone Experiment you control after taking a turn with that Clone Experiment, and on all Clone Experiments you control at the end of each round.
SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = INSANE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 4
LIFE = 4
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 265?
EXPERIMENTAL CLONING 15
Before placing Order Markers for any round, you may choose any previously destroyed Unique Human, Mutate, or Clone Hero and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 15 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from the chosen Hero’s Army Card and place the chosen Hero on any empty space adjacent to Jackal. If the chosen Hero was a Clone, place 2 Wound Markers on its card. You now control the chosen Hero, and it has the species of Clone and the class of Experiment instead of what is listed on its card.
DRUG TIPPED CLAWS
After attacking an adjacent figure with Jackal's normal attack, if the defending figure received one or more wounds but was not destroyed, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 12 or higher, remove one Order Marker at random from the defending figure's card. Androids, Constructs, and Destructible Objects are not affected by Drug Tipped Claws.
CELLULAR DEGENERATION
For the entire game, you must place 1 Wound Marker on any Clone Experiment you control after taking a turn with that Clone Experiment, and on all Clone Experiments you control at the end of each round.
I'm liking the spirit of the changes here (clones easier to make, but dying more quickly), but Jackal's feeling a little too scary to me right now. I tried him out in a 2000-point build taking some inspiration from what we did last time (Beat Cops/Invisible Woman) and he was pretty scary. In that size of game, it feels a little too easy to protect Jackal, bog down opponents, and still have some points left over for a high-life heavy-hitter or two to clone. I tried out that build against a couple very different armies and Jackal pretty firmly won both of them. He was getting fairly lucky with the cloning rolls in both matches (which makes these things tricky to evaluate), but I think he still would have been doing well even at a normal cloning rate.
I also tried a 1200 point match, and Jackal seemed much closer to balanced there. If you can figure out a way to give him diminishing returns as the match scales upward, I think he'll be fine. Not sure how to go about that, though.
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Jackal
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. Pass
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. Pass
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. Pass
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. Pass, probably
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. Fail. Experimental Cloning's going to be fine in most matches, but I'm worried about how good it gets when you start upping the points.
- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. Pass
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. Pass
- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting. Pass
- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. Pass. Drug Tipped Claws didn't come up while testing, but it's more of a fail-safe than the reason to draft Jackal. I expect that toning down the Cloning would also lead to more situations where Jackal would have to rely on his attacks.
- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. Pass
Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Unsure; at the edge of failing - What should be the unit's point value? 280+ - Give a brief overview.Jackal successfully clones the (Hasbro) Hulk three times in a row. This ends badly for the other guys.
Map: Green Lantern Mogo
Units: Jackal, Invisible Woman, Beat Cops x2, Incredible Hulk (Hasbro), Ant-Man (Pym), Killer Bee, Baron Heinrich Zemo, War Machine, Electro, Graviton (2000) vs Captain America (C3G), Silver Surfer (C3G), Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Groot, Drax, Gamora (2000)
Spoiler Alert!
The first round is largely mobilization; Electro and War Machine are moved to proper positions and Hulk is advanced. Meanwhile, the Guardians mobilize. Hulk gets angry and kills Cap (taking five wounds himself) in round two.
Before round three, Jackal fails to revive Cap.
During round three, Drax pulls a Deathwalker roll and dies to the max-power Hulk, costing the Guardians two OMs.Hulk follows up by killing Star-Lord and putting three wounds on Surfer before being taken down.
At the start of round four, Jackal clones the Hulk
Hulk jumps out and destroys Surfer, puts two wounds on Rocket before dying of degeneration
At the start of round five, Jackal clones the Hulk again. Gamora destroys the Hulk (taking four wounds as she does). The unholy trinity of Graviton, Electro, & War Machine manages to do zero wounds, but Adhesive X Trap prevents Gamora from taking advantage. Graviton destroys Gamora on the next turn.
At the start of round six, Jackal pulls off the threepeat and clones Hulk one more time. Rocket Raccoon, broken and battered, manages to get close enough to the enemy start zone to wreak some havoc with the BFG. One wound to Sue, one wound to War Machine, one wound to Hulk, and two wounds would have been dealt a Beat Cop destroyed. Graviton and the auto-wound brigade destroy Rocket.
At the start of round seven, Hulk is still alive (at four wounds from degeneration), so Jackal clones Cap instead. It's successful! Hulk and War Machine duel with Groot, who has only made it halfway across the map, leaving him with 5 (healed to 4) wounds at the end of the round and Hulk dead.
At the start of round eight, Hulk is, surprisingly, not cloned, but War Machine finishes off Groot.
Unit Summary:
Would have taken 2 Wounds from Rocket (averted with Beat Cop)
Never used Drug-Tipped Claws (or normal attack, at all)
Cloning: 4 for 6
This one's tricky to evaluate; I think the high-point/big map format favored Jackal to begin with, and if I'm doing my Rock-Paper-Scissors correctly, then Scissory Master Jackals also had an edge over the Paper Avenging Guardians. Team Cap also somewhat fell prey to thematic army-building; they weren't quite as scarily built as Team Jackal. And on top of all that, Jackal and Hulk were both rolling really, really lucky. In short, this is pretty much the best-case scenario for Team Jackal.
So with those conditions, Team Jackal should have stomped all over Team Star-Lord. Which is what they did. But the margin of victory still feels a little uncomfortably wide to me here, so I thought I'd try out some similar things with my other tests. Who won and how many wounds did they have?Five Beat Cops, Graviton with 0W, Electro with 0W, Jackal with 0W, Zemo with 0W, Captain America with 1W, Sue with 1W, Rhodey with 1W
Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes - What should be the unit's point value? 265-280 - Give a brief overview.Tested out something similar to the last match, but on a smaller scale. Jackal wins again, but by a tighter margin. Definitely a little less powerful in smaller matches. And when he's not constantly giving you free Hulks.
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Baron Heinrich Zemo, Jackal, Black Adam, She-Hulk, Trapster (1200) vs Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Robot, Flash (Wally), Scarlet Witch (1200)
Spoiler Alert!
She-Hulk and Black Adam come out swinging and take down most of Star-Lord's team early. Scarlet Witch hexes Adam and She-Hulk.
It comes down to a 1-Life Black Adam and a half-dead She-Hulk (plus all the Start Zone Masters!) against a full-health Wally West.
Flash takes down Black Adam on his way to assassinate the Jackal, but is forced to first deal with Zemo, whose Adhesive X Trap will prevent him from accomplishing anything.
Flash takes down Zemo, but one turn too late to deal with Jackal, and Adam is cloned. Flash takes three wounds, but manages to fell the cloned Adam while holding off She-Hulk, with an assist from Degeneration and Adam's Hex.
Wally runs in to try to take down Jackal again, but unfortunately comes up slightly short, and Jackal manages to clone Adam again. Team Jackal takes the next initiative roll and Adam finishes off Wally.
Unit Summary:
2W taken from Wally
Cloning: 2 for 4 (Black Adam cloned twice)
Drug Tipped Claws/normal attack never used
Still a victory for the Jackal, but in a much less scary way; if he had missed that last Cloning roll, he almost certainly would have been destroyed, bringing it down to She-Hulk and Trapster vs Wally. He definitely doesn't feel as intimidating in the lower-point setting.
Who won and how many wounds did they have?Jackal with 2 wounds, She-Hulk with 4 wounds, Black Adam (Clone) with 3 wounds, Trapster with 1 wound
Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? No - What should be the unit's point value? 300+ - Give a brief overview.Tried out that first match again, but with Team Jackal against Anti-Monitor and Captain Mar-Vell. Though less of a blowout, Team Jackal still wins by a comfortable margin.
Map: Green Lantern Mogo
Units: Jackal, Invisible Woman, Beat Cops x2, Incredible Hulk (Hasbro), Ant-Man (Pym), Killer Bee, Baron Heinrich Zemo, War Machine, Electro, Graviton (2000) vs Anti-Monitor, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) (2000)
Spoiler Alert!
In the first round, Hulk and Anti-Monitor come to blows. Anti-Monitor erases two Beat Cops and Sue Storm from existence.
In the second round, Jackal clones Sue. AM takes heavy damage while putting a couple wounds each on Hulk and Jackal, and killing a Beat Cop.
Jackal clones Sue. AM and Hulk trade wounds. AM erases Ant-Man and a few Beat Cops from existence.
Jackal fails to clone Ant-Man. AM destroys Hulk and would have destroyed Jackal, but a Beat Cop takes the fall.
Jackal clones the Hulk. AM and Hulk II trade blows. At the end of the round, post-degeneration, Hulk II has 1 Life left and AM has 2.
Jackal clones Ant-Man. Hulk II destroys Anti-Monitor and then dies of degeneration. Ant-Man dies of degeneration.
Jackal clones Hulk. Captain Marvel trades wounds with Hulk, kills Jackal. Hulk and Sue die of degeneration.
Captain Marvel puts a couple wounds on Zemo before being taken down by Reverse Gravity and Electric Skin.
Unit Summary:
Cloning: 4 for 6 (improbably high, again)
2W taken from Anti-Monitor, 2W from Captain Mar-Vell (destroyed)
Drug-Tipped Claws, normal attack: not used
Who won and how many wounds did they have?Zemo with two wounds, Electro, Rhodey, Graviton, Killer Bee, One Beat Cop (all at full health)
Agreed. How about making it so if a figure is destroyed by Cellular Degeneration, it is removed from the game?
This could result in some interesting choices for the opponent to decide if it is worth attacking a cloned figure or just waiting for it to disintegrate.
Another possibility would be to a point/value restriction on Cloning, like around 250 points. Though once per figure per game is most likely the simplest route.
A cloud can change its semblance, yet retain its will
With the intimacy of destruction, One knows what it is to be alive
The empty sky holds no reflection, for sorrow - Eslo Rudkey
Looks like we may need to limit Experimental Cloning to once per Unique Hero.
That looks like a prudent change. As Ronin notes, luck was certainly on Jackal's side, but those are some crazy wins. He'll still be better at higher costs, but hopefully that change limits him some.
Did you ever get midgieboy's tests? He said in the playtesting thread that he sent them.
".... the Cambridge ladies do not care, above
Cambridge if sometimes in its box of
sky lavender and cornerless, the
moon rattles like a fragment of angry candy"
Looks like we may need to limit Experimental Cloning to once per Unique Hero.
That looks like a prudent change. As Ronin notes, luck was certainly on Jackal's side, but those are some crazy wins. He'll still be better at higher costs, but hopefully that change limits him some.
Did you ever get midgieboy's tests? He said in the playtesting thread that he sent them.
Yeah, he sent it in 4 posts so it took a while to go through, and the formatting was a little off so I had him fix that and gave him some pointers on how to make the report more concise so it fits within 1 or 2 PMs. I'll post it shortly.
October 15th, 2014, 11:06 PM
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