The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Knox]

One (likely controversial) suggestion: IMO, the lawmen faction is pretty well complete. However, I the outlaws need a little love and as the chaotic good general, Aquilla is perfect for the next outlaw.

IMO the only generals that can't have an outlaw are Jandar, Einar, & Ullar (all are too orderly) and the only generals that can't have a lawman are Utgar & Valkrill. All other generals should have 1 of each to fill the "everyone got one" theme of these factions.

Therefore, I'd suggest changing Jim's default class to outlaw

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Knox

One (likely controversial) suggestion: IMO, the lawmen faction is pretty well complete. However, I the outlaws need a little love and as the chaotic good general, Aquilla is perfect for the next outlaw.

IMO the only generals that can't have an outlaw are Jandar, Einar, & Ullar (all are too orderly) and the only generals that can't have a lawman are Utgar & Valkrill. All other generals should have 1 of each to fill the "everyone got one" theme of these factions.

Therefore, I'd suggest changing Jim's default class to outlaw

The Lawman faction is certainly pretty full at the moment. However, I don't really want to make Jim an Outlaw.

While I think an Aquilla Outlaw is workable, I also think that an Einar Outlaw is even more workable. Einar has Gladiators already, which were arena fighters partially comprised of criminals trying to earn their freedom through fighting. Heck, Guilty McCreech is literally a corrupt Lawman, that might well have been an Outlaw if the OG designers had been making Outlaws. If I was designing Guilty, I'd give him an ability similar to Heritage, but it makes him on Outlaw if you have any other Outlaws in your army.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

The Lawman faction is certainly pretty full at the moment. However, I don't really want to make Jim an Outlaw.

While I think an Aquilla Outlaw is workable, I also think that an Einar Outlaw is even more workable. Einar has Gladiators already, which were arena fighters partially comprised of criminals trying to earn their freedom through fighting. Heck, Guilty McCreech is literally a corrupt Lawman, that might well have been an Outlaw if the OG designers had been making Outlaws. If I was designing Guilty, I'd give him an ability similar to Heritage, but it makes him on Outlaw if you have any other Outlaws in your army.

Totally understand - it's your custom (or Pumpkin King's) so go ahead with whatever you want to do.

For Einar, Einar is defined by discipline & honor. IMO the Gladiators & Guilty were a total mistake for Einar, they definitely belong with another general. I think the clear design philosophy break with those units was a mistake and doesn't justify totally re-writing the Einar theme. For me, a Jandar or Ullar outlaw makes more sense than an Einar one.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

Leaf It and I were discussing a potential alternate version of Lasso in Discord.

Would this wording work from a rules perspective @Scytale ? I think that movement "toward a figure in a straight line" is clear enough (the straight line requirement really helps here imo), but since "toward" something isn't precisely defined in Scape terminology I wanted to make sure it would work.

Ugh, why? It probably works, but forced movements come with all sorts of hassles, and thankfully have all been limited to 1 space.

Please don't force theme at the cost of complexity. This takes the unit from "really good" to, "ugh, overcomplicated."

[superfrog]

Yeah, Scy is right. We already have a power that says "I wrap him up and pull him closer" (sounds like a romance novel lol). Straying too far from that is unintuitive, and the versions proposed are overly complex for very little benefit.

[Leaf_It]

Okay so this is where I'm sitting now.

NAME = JIM WHITECLOUD
GENERAL = AQUILLA
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = LAWMAN
PERSONALITY = FEARLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
2 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
70 POINTS

TRIBAL HERITAGE
Jim has the class of Tribesman in addition to what is listed on this card.

TOMAHAWK 2
When Jim Whitecloud attacks an adjacent figure, He receives 2 additional attack die.

LASSO 11
Before attacking, if Jim Whitecloud did not move this this turn, you may choose a small or medium figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Jim whose base is no more than 2 levels above Jim's height or 5 levels below Jim's base, and roll the D20. If you roll an 11 or higher, place that figure on any empty same-level space adjacent to Jim. If the chosen figure is engaged when it is moved by Lasso 9, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

None of this really affects my playtesting. It does make Lawman + Mohican armies more viable, so I'll test that a bit before submitting, but it's not a huge change.

Hey @superfrog @vegietarian18 @wriggz @BiggaBullfrog @Astroking112 @Dysole @Vydar_XLIII

Do any of you have any objections to multi classing in this case? @Scytale and @quozl have both shown that they have no rules issues with it. I mainly want to use both from the start, because Kolbjorn is already about to ruin Tribesman with something that's not Native American. While nothing else currently uses Fearsome, nothing about being "Fearsome" is exclusively Native American either. The last option, naming the cards that are Native American, and making Jim a Tribesman when they are in your army, is a nonstarter, because it limits any future Native American designs. If it's really an option, I'd prefer to use both Classes through the version of Tribal Heritage that I've quoted above.

[Knox]

Why don't you make Lasso before moving? After moving + if Jim doesn't move this turn is a bit clunky - I can't think of many interactions where you'd use Lasso before moving, willfully take a LEA and move anyways.

I'm sure such scenarios exist but I'm not sure they are enough of a concern to justify the added complexity of the power.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Knox

Why don't you make Lasso before moving? After moving + if Jim doesn't move this turn is a bit clunky - I can't think of many interactions where you'd use Lasso before moving, willfully take a LEA and move anyways.

I'm sure such scenarios exist but I'm not sure they are enough of a concern to justify the added complexity of the power.

Good point. "Cut the fat" on the verbiage there and just say "Before moving, you may choose..."

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Knox

Why don't you make Lasso before moving? After moving + if Jim doesn't move this turn is a bit clunky - I can't think of many interactions where you'd use Lasso before moving, willfully take a LEA and move anyways.

I'm sure such scenarios exist but I'm not sure they are enough of a concern to justify the added complexity of the power.

Reread it. It's before attacking, instead of moving.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Reread it. It's before attacking, instead of moving.

Fair...but the point is, mechanically you're accomplishing basically the same exact thing. In fact, by doing "Before Moving" it allows you a little more flexibility for if he fails the Lasso...cause as written, if I wanna use Lasso then I'm stuck where I'm at whether I fail or not. So Lasso becomes very limiting. but it's a small thing and more personal preference tbh.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Yeah, Scy is right. We already have a power that says "I wrap him up and pull him closer" (sounds like a romance novel lol). Straying too far from that is unintuitive, and the versions proposed are overly complex for very little benefit.

I agree, reusing the Drow Chainfighter's Chain Grab seems the best way to go for this theme. Chain Grab also has the advantage of using the same number for elevation differences regardless of whether you're lassoing up or down.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Fair...but the point is, mechanically you're accomplishing basically the same exact thing. In fact, by doing "Before Moving" it allows you a little more flexibility for if he fails the Lasso...cause as written, if I wanna use Lasso then I'm stuck where I'm at whether I fail or not. So Lasso becomes very limiting. but it's a small thing and more personal preference tbh.

Sir Heroscape has it right. Current version is after moving, before attacking, but you can't move. Which in 98% of cases is going to be the same as "before moving" (but you can move). This greatly simplifies the card and allows me to move if I fail my lasso. And it's so much cleaner

Also, btw in the text of lasso rn you vacillate between Lasso 11 and Lasso 9. I believe you want it to be 11