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  #13  
Old December 31st, 2018, 12:50 AM
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Re: Robotnik

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Hops don't have many figures but they do tend to have staying power due to stats and large and soulborg immunities. J reminds me a lot of heirloom. While heirloom can splash and has some good defense, J gets some immunities, some flexibility, and a bit of bonding.

Executioner should be played with detonation as a bonus
or something to use after a unit has lost its usefulness, rather than the sole focus as you're going to get more value out of her deadly strike than you will with her detonation. She's solid but not amazing and fits well in every soulborg build.

Deathwings can wreck people. The big advantage they have over Kursus is being a squad and being able to kite if kabooming is inefficient. They're kind of like vippers or havechs. They're usually fine, but they'll have games where they absolutely wreck your opponent (and some games where they underwhelm).

~Dysole, who loves all of these units (she'd better love executioner since she created her)
Hoplitrons will prob go up to a 6 in the first update. Bonding's basically always good.

Executioner 616 is at the bottom of the 6's, probably will rise within the tier. I like her possibilities with rats. Also, again, has both Hoplitrons and Zettians that bond with her. I don't see her at a 7 though.

J15 I'm still weary of bumping up because he's a single attacker. But I don't see him moving any lower than where he is. Maybe I just have to play him (I've only played him once I think). I usually think less of Heirloom than others do, so maybe my thoughts on J15 are stuck in the same boat.

Deathwings will rise for sure. I was lost on placing them in the first place. Thanks for the insight.
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  #14  
Old December 31st, 2018, 01:02 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
I'd love to hear your Brute Grut strategies!
I haven't gotten to their description yet but, in short, they're essentially a 4 squad with double attack (and base attack of 3). I guess I'll elaborate a bit:

Similar to the Hydra, I think they're nasty with rats. Engage the board, and send them in (well, it's not an unknown strategy with the rats haha, so I shouldn't make it sound like it's unique to them). They can get pretty crazy with Finn/Bahadur's spirit, and also can receive the other spirits too (sans Arktos) of course. Bully makes them good against commons too, if you're not using them to beat down a hero, making them very versatile. Disengage is a bonus. Even with one or two destroyed, you can still setup nice turns with multiple double attacks, throwing many dice.

I just think you're going to kill way more than 65pt. with them a lot of the time. And if not, you're definitely going to get 65pt. of damage out of them at the very least. 8 attacks is nuts - that's gonna be a potential of 24-32 dice, considering bully or height. They remind me of the Hydra honestly.

Last edited by Cleon; December 31st, 2018 at 01:18 AM.
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  #15  
Old December 31st, 2018, 01:38 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I'm going to rank and add the newest units - Arthur, Kozil, Boreos, Azazel, Talingul, Tetraites, and Bol - when I do the first update. I suppose I can list what tier I think each will be in if people want me to.

(It looks like we're getting more large constructs soon, so Talingul's rank might be a bit iffy)
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Old December 31st, 2018, 01:53 AM
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Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto

That sounds about right for Executioner (I think dok said he felt like no more than a B-) although hops or Deathstalkers and Deathcommander feel like her best options moreso than rats.

I have never had a game where I wasn't disappointed in J. Don't forget he's basically rolling 6 attack against the Q Bros, dragons, hydras, and some other really powerful figures.

Brute gruts are a great second wave unit but I have watched them get wrecked by range since they lose defense dice so they require careful usage but their potential is really good.

~Dysole, who thinks Boreos is the highest ranked of the new figures and then probably Azazel or Kozzie the Owlbear wakka wakka
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  #17  
Old December 31st, 2018, 09:13 AM
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Re: Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
That sounds about right for Executioner (I think dok said he felt like no more than a B-) although hops or Deathstalkers and Deathcommander feel like her best options moreso than rats.

I have never had a game where I wasn't disappointed in J. Don't forget he's basically rolling 6 attack against the Q Bros, dragons, hydras, and some other really powerful figures.

Brute gruts are a great second wave unit but I have watched them get wrecked by range since they lose defense dice so they require careful usage but their potential is really good.

~Dysole, who thinks Boreos is the highest ranked of the new figures and then probably Azazel or Kozzie the Owlbear wakka wakka
I think I'd put her at a B for the original rankings, B- seems low. You could do both those things and rats if you wanted to. The great thing about rats is they're cheap, and good 99.9% of the time lol

That's good but can you get to them with J15? I guess Guided Cannon makes it so that he's usually hitting what he wants to hit whenever. He does have the same survivability as Q10 at 55 points cheaper. Hmm.....

Yeah but Brute Gruts are only 65pt., if you happen to get stomped by range, which I don't think will happen too much. Even just one of them running around can deal a lot of damage if you play it right. Again, they remind me of the Hydra - has the likely potential to do an astronomical amount of damage, and in the off chance they get killed before doing much, you're not losing many points.

Also it's worth mentioning they're not tied to the Grut army (if people think that), they could and should be used all over. Armies catered to them make them kill so much, and adding them as your last 65pt as a strong unique squad is nice. I like them with Bahadur+rats a lot.
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  #18  
Old December 31st, 2018, 09:38 AM
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Re: Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
~Dysole, who thinks Boreos is the highest ranked of the new figures and then probably Azazel or Kozzie the Owlbear wakka wakka
Boreos is really annoying for melee to deal with, I'm curious to see what other constructs come out if that army will be deadly.

I think Kozil's my favorite of the new units, he looks pretty great for the Spiders. He's like the Spider's Krug. I was thinking he might be the highest out of the 7. But I just glanced at them.

Bol is pretty great for 10pt. You really don't need to spend order markers on him, with Nottingham Brigand and his Opportunistic Hero ability. That's something Otonashi struggles with, I think Bol's a much better version (they're similar in stats/abilities).

Some comments on the other ones (at a glance)....

Talingul I'm going to have to see what other Constructs are coming, right now he's only okay (two Iron Golems is hella cool though).

Azezel's really cool. Basically a lesser Thanos for the pure-Heroscape game. Really good with rats, maybe cutters too. He might be my favorite actually.

Arthur seems pretty good. Not as good as Locksley but a nice addition for the Nottingham Brigand. 70pt. is pretty cheap which is cool.

Gladiator figures are hard to rate but Tetraites looks like a powerful figure. Might be pretty good outside the gladiators too.
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  #19  
Old February 26th, 2019, 07:40 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I definitely want to update and make some changes to units, as well as rank the latest 9 units that were just released. But before doing that I still have to write the last 39 descriptions. I'd also like to write descriptions for old units that have moved greatly because of VC (i.e. - Armocs) but I'm not sure when I'll get around to that (ugh...so many descriptions haha ).

Also am still uploading a bunch of my past maps too (i have like 8ish to go). But work is looking busy this week so i'll probably get to finishing the descriptions slowly day by day.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 04:05 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I will do my first large update to this list soon with several changes I want to make (some examples: I think Nilfheim is above the Incendiborgs, Rygarn is a 9 (I'm still up in the air about where the Varja should be placed), the Ravagers I think might be a 6 in the future if more Savage heroes come but right now they're a 5, Shiori should be bumped up). This list takes a very long time to do an update with and is becoming increasingly difficult with the way I do it (rank within each tier) the more I look at it and try to hypothesize the VC metagame, not to mention the fact that new units are being added through VC, but I'm up for the challenge and want to do the first update soon. Still gotta finish the descriptions, too.

But until then, I figured I'd rate the new VC units I haven't added yet:

Arthur Sherwood - 5. He's a pretty good hero for the Rogue army. Nottingham Brigand are becoming increasingly better to me each time I look at them, and if you're a Rogue figure you're almost guaranteed to be at least decent. But I think he's near-last in line after Locksley, Darrak, and Elaria (and Bol! ), and x2 more Nottingham Brigand too, so I don't see him as a 'must' by any means. Good with Treasure Glyphs but so is Locksley, and I'd rather spend the 70pt. on other things rather than be 'even better on treasure glyph maps'...and I'd choose Locksley over this guy 9 times out of 10 in my Nottingham Brigand army. Still, he might be pretty damn annoying in a rats+NB army. Hmmm he might be a 6, I need to try it myself. 8 move disengage/Passing Blow + attack + Nottingham Brigand shot is a solid turn. I'll keep an eye on him.

Azazel the Kyrie Warrior - 6+. I applaud the C3V team for making this dude as cool as he is, and for bringing Rejected by Death into the non-Marvel game - very cool. Basically bringing Thanos into the game. 3 def 4 life is much much worse than 7 def 6 life of course, but Azazel might be just as abusable. Whirlwind Assault with 4 base attack gives him enough of a punch that I think it will be sufficient to be your primary attacking force. But you need to abuse Rejected by Death like you would with Thanos, I think that's the only way to make this unit shine. I wouldn't spend my points on things he has synergy with (Death Knights, Blackguaard, kyrie stuff), spend points on hyper-survivable units to fully abuse Rejected by Death. Rats, PK's, MW, Cutters, maybe Dividers would be pretty good, WoA might be decent if you compensate for range. My go-to army for him would be Azazel, Rats x4, PK's x2, Zetacron. But there's a lot you can do. Death Knights actually aren't terrible, they do have some survivability. I think the points can be spent on so many other better things though (rats, rats, rats). x1 DK's isn't out of the question either. Maybe Azazel, DK's x2, Rats x3, MW, PK's x1. You could even go with Zettians for the last 70 . Bottom line, Rejected by Death is so abusable, especially with rats, that this unit should not go overlooked despite its pretty low survivability. I'm going to put him somewhere in the 6's right now, but I can see huge potential in him and potential rises in the future. I know how broken the Thanos build is but I haven't played it in a while, so I'm rating Azazel on the conservative side. But he's at the very least a 6. Most likely will rise to 7 or 8.

Banshees of Durgeth Swamp - 5. They kind of remind me of the Zettian Deathwings. Fragile suicide squad that can do a good bit of damage. They really don't do anything into strong heroes though, and can be easily shot down. Whereas the Deathwings have evasive 2 and still explode on heroes. I just don't think the damage you'll do before they fall will be worth the 70pt most of the time. I like the idea of them flying around a locked down board Screaming things and staying on height, maybe getting some 4 attack swings. Their 2 defense at 35pt. a pop makes me too weary to rank them any higher than this though. The Deathwings are better between the two I'd say (I'm considering bumping the Deathwings up to a low-6 btw). I'll have to try them out, maybe my opinion will change after I play them.

Bol - 8. Basically he's what Otonashi aspires to be. The problem with Otonashi is that you have to place order markers on her, which is often a waste. You could make the argument that you have free order markers in the endgame when you only have Otonashi, but then, if you're only using her as an endgame option, you should just be using Isamu. Cause, you know, he's broken. . But with Bol, you don't need to put order markers on him necessarily. He's a free turn(s), and is compensating your fallen heroes' lost turns. The sweet thing is he works with all unique heroes. So as long as you're not running all commons, Bol's a relevant option. In comparison with the Vydar Ninja...he has the same stats as Otonashi, Disengage is almost the same as Phantom Walk, and Ankle Shank is as prevalent if not more prevalent as Attack the Wild. Scratch that, I think Ankle Shank is much more prevalent actually. The only thing Otonashi really has is Tricky Speed, which is quite minute imo. Not even close to as good as Opportunistic Hero. And, Bol's a freaking Rogue so he actually can ride with the Nottingham Brigand. If Opportunistic Hero never kicks in, NB bond regardless so you don't need to worry about spending OM's if you're running him with the Rogues. So, if you have 10pt. to fill and you're not considering Isamu (for whatever reason lol), if you have at least one Unique Hero (or are running NB's of course), go with Bol. If you have Isamu and want another 10pt.-er, it's the same thing, go with Bol. Unless you're running a Tricky Agent Cover Fire army (I might even still consider Bol), or running Kantono Daishi, or know for a fact you're going into a Wild-heavy meta lol (and I'd still argue Ankle Shank is in the debate), choose Bol over Otonashi. All in all, even though Isamu is still by far the best 10pt. option, Bol is the new and much-improved Otonashi.

Buccaneers of Tortuga - High-6. These guys are cool. Definitely not as good as Heavies or Cultists, but still interesting. I prefer having a third defense die over a D20 save ability, but having a scatter-like function makes it more likeable. I really like the fact they always have 4 attack whenever you win initiative and use them turn 1. Strong against armies that have OM difficulties, probably a nice counter to a lot of rat hodgepodges. The 2 base defense still worries me though, so I'm going with a high-6. Agent Skahen+Raelin+Buccaneersx4 is a dope army.

Boreos - 6 (?) . Absolutely nasty endgame hero for certain scenarios, but other than that he's basically just a Wyvern. The Wyvern has Spiders, Boreos as Talingul and Constructs. But the Construct army still seems to be in the works and is still new, and is a lot of points to invest in, whereas the Spiders are just increments of 40pt. We'll see, it's hard to compare those armies since the Construct one is so new and waiting to be built on. This is probably the hardest of the 9 units for me to rate....on the surface I just see a Wyvern but I know how great this figure is in a lot of opposing melee scenarios, and the Construct build is still in the works as far as I can tell. Kinda reminds me of the Varja...it's really a unit I need to play to get a feeling of (which I'm still lost on lol). I wouldn't be surprised if this figure is higher but for now I'm going with a 6. Again, part of me just sees another Wyvern, but I know there's potential here. I'm a bit lost on this one so feel free to comment your thoughts on Boreos.

Kozil - Bottom of 8. Kozil's basically the new Krug, or Krug for the Spiders. He's kind of like a Krug that likes the D20 more than number of attack dice. Brutal versus small/medium heroes and basically will always kill or do good damage every turn, like Krug does. Except Kozil basically spreads his double attack throughout yours and your opponent's turn, rather than just on your turn. Kozil attacks and kills something on your turn, and is attacked and kills something on your opponent's turn. Krug does kills both on his turn, and then nothing on your opponent's turn. Again, it's like he has double attack but it's spread out onto your opponent's turn. Can get around high defense or defensive abilities when wounding rage on your opponent's turn. Although Krug basically doesn't care about high defense, either, lol. The Spiders vs. the Arrow Gruts is an interesting debate when comparing him and Krug. The Spiders can spread out way more - very little limitations - than the Arrow Gruts (assuming your podding up with Swogs) but Arrow Gruts can better secure an area and let Krug roam free and basically go wherever he wants to or needs to. I see it as Kozil+Spiders are better at teaming up and directing attention to one area or conflict, and AGs+Krug are better at seriously threatening two different areas at the same time. I dunno, I mean both teams can do the reverse too though; AGs+Krug can make one area pretty fierce, and Kozil+Spiders can still attack two different areas pretty well too. All in all I think Krug is better, I predict he gets the job done a bit easier and more often than Kozil does, and Krug is better outside of using them with their respective bonding squads in my opinion. But, Kozil's very close behind. There's also something to be said that x1 Spiders with Kozil is much better than x1 Arrow Gruts with Krug, and probably the x2 comparison too. Kozil's 10pt. more than Krug but AG's need Swogs and Spiders don't, so the points aren't really in Krug's favor. I'm going to put him as the bottom unit of the 8's for right now. I think he's my favorite of these new 9 units. Either him or Azazel.

Talingul - 5. This dude's pretty average. He brings a new build to the table - large/construct build. Double Iron Golem turns is really sweet to me, but you need to invest 300pt. to do so. Augamo's a great figure too, but you need to invest at least 355pt. with him to abuse using him in double construct turns (along with the cheapest one currently - Iron Golem), or 370pt. with Boreos. And the cheapest with Boreos is 315pt. Bottom line is, double construct turns are great, but you have a lot of your army points gone in order to do so. And I think you need to invest the remaining points of your army in non-large/huge-constructs to be competitive in a ~500pt. setting. In 600pt. you can definitely fit a third construct which will work well I think. I wish Talingul had the option of bonding with 1 construct and then activating himself in a turn, that would have made him much better - move and attack with a big construct, and then Talingul shoots afterwards. Would've been like the Nottingham Brigand. Still, having that range is nice in the endgame, in comparison with Kurrok, and the 6 life in nice too. But, he's still in the 5 realm. Might even be lower than Kurrok/Kato.....I'd have to see the large/huge construct army in action to see how effective it is. But yeah, he's a 5.

*It does look like we're getting more large/huge constructs down the road, which could obviously help him out a lot. Especially if one of them is a range heavy unit, that could really abuse comboing with Augamo. I'm personally hoping that there will be cheaper constructs down the pipeline, like 45pt. or lower would be sweet, especially if uncommon. We'll see.

Tetraites - Low-6. He's like an offensive version of Crixus (not to say the Crixus falls in the defensive category of units, but his ability helps his defense side). Will do a lot of damage for sure especially when he's boosted to a 6/4. Unfortunately, though, he's 110pt. so he can't really fit into the Gladiator build in 500pt. (maybe Spartacus + Tetraites + Capuans x2 + MW is an option?) but is an interesting alternative to Crixus+Marcu in the 520pt. setting. Crixus' survivability is still better than Tetraites' brutal offensive perks in my opinion, and is still 20pt. less. I think I'll put him about where I put Priscus.

Last edited by Cleon; March 15th, 2019 at 04:32 AM.
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  #21  
Old March 15th, 2019, 04:37 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I actually think that Azazel could work really well with the Death Knights if you take a decent force of them. Since you get double the turns with bonding, the odds for Rejected by Death drastically increase in your favor over taking him with rats, and the DKs themselves are already durable.

Rats will probably still be a better option anyway of course because they'll likely live even longer and are much cheaper, and non-Death Knight bonding squads get the same benefit and only lose out on the bonding, so I do doubt that the DKs will be his best build. He's probably their best option, though, I'd imagine.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:48 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I will do my first large update to this list soon with several changes I want to make (some examples: I think Nilfheim is above the Incendiborgs, Rygarn is a 9 (I'm still up in the air about where the Varja should be placed), the Ravagers I think might be a 6 in the future if more Savage heroes come but right now they're a 5, Shiori should be bumped up).
Rygarn is one of the best units VC has released. A bit trickier to figure out than Quahon or the Cathars, but definitely strong.

Quote:
Arthur Sherwood - 5
I think Arthur is tons of fun (and he can pick up T-Glyphs and bring them back for Locksley) but you're right that he doubles down a bit on that aspect. I wouldn't underestimate his ability to clog up the front lines a bit: he is double-spaced and can run past screens while killing them. I'd lean towards a bump, but I think somewhere in 5-6 is good.

Quote:
Azazel the Kyrie Warrior - 6+.
...
I wouldn't spend my points on things he has synergy with (Death Knights, Blackguaard, kyrie stuff), spend points on hyper-survivable units to fully abuse Rejected by Death.
...
Death Knights actually aren't terrible, they do have some survivability.
...
Most likely will rise to 7 or 8.
The best thing about running Azazel with Death Knights is that they bond with him, so if he comes back mid-round, you can take turns with him immediately, with relatively low risk.

We tried to be pretty cautious with his pricing since RbD is by nature very abusable.

Quote:
Banshees of Durgeth Swamp - 5.
I think these guys are relatively splashable at 1-2x. They're especially good as a counter to high-defense commons like Hoplitrons or Minions. But yeah, they suck against heroes.

Quote:
Bol - 8. Basically he's what Otonashi aspires to be.
I'm a bit sad I didn't get assigned to review Bol because everybody thinks he's so fun. Not sure about his worth in a Nottingham Brigand build, though. I'd pretty much always rather take a turn with a better Rogue, and since you will always put your OMs on the common hero, his Opportunism doesn't work out so well.

Quote:
Buccaneers of Tortuga - High-6. These guys are cool. Definitely not as good as Heavies or Cultists, but still interesting. I prefer having a third defense die over a D20 save ability, but having a scatter-like function makes it more likeable.
Yeah, these guys are good with a hot d20, but 2 defense is pretty bad otherwise. Going into range, they've got good matchups. A few Elusive rolls on turn 3 and then an initiative switch and you'll easily take out a whole squad of opponents.

Quote:
Boreos - 6 (?) .
Boreos really makes the construct army work, especially against melee. One cool thing you can do is carry Talingul along with Boreos, even repositioning on the first construct turn so you can see the second construct. And yeah, endgame scenarios make Boreos nasty. I think a bump to 7 or 8 is warranted.

Quote:
Kozil - Bottom of 8. Kozil's basically the new Krug, or Krug for the Spiders.
Yeah, Kozil is fun (and good). Good Krug comparison.

Quote:
Talingul - 5. This dude's pretty average.
I like Talingul. Just wait until Avernus comes out

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Tetraites - Low-6. He's like an offensive version of Crixus.
As I wrote in a blurb as a draft for the power rankings: Tetraites is just "if Crixus traded defense for offense". I'd suggest combining him with Priscus and leaving Spartacus home.

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Old March 15th, 2019, 12:03 PM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Don’t forget that Boreos bonds with DK’s, @Cleon . He shines when you can move 2 heroes and 2 squads per OM in the early game.

And yeah, he wrecks melee.

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Old March 17th, 2019, 12:59 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I actually think that Azazel could work really well with the Death Knights if you take a decent force of them. Since you get double the turns with bonding, the odds for Rejected by Death drastically increase in your favor over taking him with rats, and the DKs themselves are already durable.

Rats will probably still be a better option anyway of course because they'll likely live even longer and are much cheaper, and non-Death Knight bonding squads get the same benefit and only lose out on the bonding, so I do doubt that the DKs will be his best build. He's probably their best option, though, I'd imagine.
You could just run wyrmlings with it, along with the rats, and still get the double turns (and wyrmlings are plainly better than the Death Knights). I think the rats are a necessity, or an alternative like Cutters or Dividers, to assure board control and longevity (splashing PK's or MW or something is very beneficial too). DK's have decent longevity, but terrible board control. They also want more things to bond with other than Azazel when Azazel is off the board, so if you're running a lot of them (like more than one or two squads) you need to also spend points on other heroes, which again, I think those points would be way better spent on other things with board control and/or longevity.

Azazel is an interesting addition for the DK's, but I think their best option is the Skull Demons.
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