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  #1  
Old April 16th, 2008, 05:53 AM
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Question How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Rankings.

I know this general topic (recosting units) has been brought up many times but I am looking for a specific formula based on Spider Poison's Power Rankings. I wasn't able to find one using the search engine.
First of all, I am not looking to use this instead of the original point cost, but as an advisory supplement when I am designing armies. I design a bunch of armies and then let people choose their favorite to speed up drafting.

The formula I am currently using is:
Weighted Unit Cost = Official Unit Cost * (1/3 + 2/3 * Unit Power Rating / Average Power Rating)
The basic idea I am basing this on is that an average unit should have their weighted cost equal to their original cost, and this formula gives that as long as the weights are 1/k+ (k-1)/k*ratio of Unit Power Rating to Average Power Rating.

The main question I have is how much of the weight should be on the ratio. I tried 1/2 and it just seemed there wasn't enough compensation for an army with weak units.

Any opinions? Anyone else who has done something similar and used a different formula?

I have tried several over the last year, and this is the one I am happiest with.



PS I am posting this in "competitive armies" because that's where Spider Poison's rating is. Any admin who thinks it should be in "official units" or some other forum should feel encouraged to move it.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 07:59 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Kroc,

That is a fascinating idea, especially for introducing newer players to the game and a variety of units. I've got no idea, though, what a better formula would be.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Kroc, have you used Bixby's Hextreme Heroscape Worksheet?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...?do=file&id=72

One of the many features it has is an army creator, and it tracks SP's ranking with each unit. Once you've created the army, one of the things it tallies up is the weighted point value of the army. I haven't paid attention to the exact way he weights it, but you might want to take a look.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

The following is based on the idea that C is average, though the rankings seem to place it more around B. Some of the rankings have changed since I made this. But the formula is simple.

Adjusted cost = (Cost*2 + Cost*[X/100] + X)/2, where X is the # from the list below.

A+ +35
A +30
A- +25
B+ +20
B +15
B- +10
C+ +5
C +0
C- -5
D+ -10
D -15
D- -20
F+ -25
F -30
F- -35

Unit....................Cost/Rank..........Adjustment

4th Mass. Line..........070/A+..........100
Deathreavers...........040/A+..........065
Major Q9.................180/A+..........230
Raelin (RotV)...........080/A+..........110

Arrow Gruts.............040/A............060
Blastatrons..............060/A............085
Cyprien Esenwein......150/A...........190
Gladiatrons..............080/A............105
Isamu.....................010/A............025
Kaemon Awa............120/A............155
Knights of Weston.....070/A............095
Krav Maga Agents.....100/A............130
Krug.......................120/A............155
Laglor.....................110/A............140
Marcu Esenwein........020/A............040
Marro Stingers.........060/A............085
Marro Warriors.........050/A............075
Me-Burq-Sa.............050/A............075
Nilfhiem..................185/A............230
Roman Legos...........050/A............075
Sir Gilbert...............105/A............135
Swog Rider..............025/A............045

Airborne Elite...........110/A-...........135
Alastair MacDirk.......110/A-...........135
Aubrien Archers........070/A-...........090
Braxas....................210/A-...........250
Eldgrim...................030/A-...........045
Major Q10...............150/A-...........180
Marcus Decimus.......100/A-...........125
Minions of Utgar.......110/A-...........135
Sonya Esenwein........045/A-...........065

Blade Gruts..............040/B+..........055
Heavy Gruts.............070/B+..........085
Marro Drones...........050/B+..........065
Nakita Agents...........120/B+..........140
Omnicron Snipers......100/B+.........120
Sentinels of Jandar.....110/B+.........130
Sgt. Drake (SotM)......170/B+.........195
Theracus...................040/B+.........055

Armoc Vipers.............065/B...........075
Charos......................210/B..........235
Concan.....................080/B...........095
Crixus......................090/B...........105
Finn.........................080/B...........095
Grimnak...................120/B...........135
Guilty McCreech.........030/B...........040
Izumi Samurai...........060/B...........070
James Murphy...........075/B...........090
Kozuke Samurai........100/B...........115
Marrden Hounds.........090/B...........105
Marrden Narubs.........030/B...........040
Marro Hive...............160/B...........180
Master Win Chiu........140/B...........160
Ne-Gok-Sa................090/B..........105
Ninjas......................110/B...........125
Ornak......................100/B...........115
Raelin (SotM)............120/B...........135
Sacred Band..............050/B..........060
Sonlen.....................160/B...........180
Syvarris...................100/B...........115
Tagawa Samurai........120/B...........135
Tarn Vikings..............050/B...........060
Tor-Kul-Na................220/B..........245
Venoc Vipers.............040/B..........050
Venoc Warlord..........120/B...........135
Warriors of Ashra......050/B...........060
Zombies..................060/B...........070

Agent Carr...............100/B-..........110
Anubian Wolves........075/B-..........085
Ashigaru Harqs.........060/B-..........070
Brunak....................110/B-..........120
Gorillinators.............090/B-..........100
Iskra Esenwein.........050/B-..........060
Jotun......................225/B-...........240
Kee-Mo-Shi..............130/B-..........140
Microcorp Agents......100/B-...........110
Mimring..................150/B-...........165
Nerak.....................050/B-...........060
Sgt. Drake (RotV).....110/B-...........120
Shaolin Monks..........080/B-..........090
Sir Hawthorne..........090/B-..........100
Sir Denrick..............100/B-..........110
Su-Bak-Na..............160/B-...........175
Tagawa Archers........065/B-..........075
Warden 816.............090/B-..........100

Ashigaru Yari...........040/C+..........045
Deadeye Dan...........060/C+..........065
Deathstalkers..........100/C+..........105
Deathwalker 8000....130/C+...........135
Deathwalker 9000....140/C+...........145
Dzu-Teh.................075/C+...........080
Empress Kiova........090/C+...........095
Johnny "Shotgun".....065/C+..........070
MacDirk Warriors.....080/C+..........085
Rechets of Bogdan....050/C+.........055
Saylind...................080/C+.........085
Shiori.....................060/C+.........065
Templar Cavalry......120/C+.........125
Thorgrim................080/C+.........085
Tornak...................100/C+.........105
Valguard................110/C+..........115

Dumutef Guard........025/C............025
Elite Onyx Vipers.....100/C............100
Kelda.....................080/C............080
Major X17...............100/C...........100
Marro Drudge..........050/C...........050
Retiarius.................090/C...........090
Roman Archers........055/C...........055
Shades..................100/C............100
Taelord..................180/C............180
The Einar Imperium..140/C...........140
Zettian Guards.........070/C...........070

Acolarh...................110/C-.........105
Hatomoto Taro.........130/C-.........125
Kyntella Gwyn..........020/C-.........015
Parmenio................090/C-.........085
Runa......................120/C-.........115

Morsbane................100/D+........090
Obsidian Guards.......100/D+........090
Sudema..................140/D+........130

Spartacus................200/D.........175

Dund......................110/D-........090

Deathwalker 7000.....100/F..........065
Khosumet................075/F..........045


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Old April 16th, 2008, 01:20 PM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Quote:
Originally Posted by yagyuninja View Post
Kroc, have you used Bixby's Hextreme Heroscape Worksheet?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...?do=file&id=72
That's a great reminder, yagyuninja.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 09:15 PM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Adjusted cost = (Cost*2 + Cost*[X/100] + X)/2, where X is the # from the list below.
This is an interesting way to do this, NecroBlade. Effectively, you're using the X value as both a multiplier and an additive factor. This makes the the adjustment greater for lower cost units.

I'm curious why you chose "C" rating as your baseline, though. It isn't really the average rating. This results in an upward adjustment in cost for 101 of the units, and a downward adjustment for just 12 units. That seems a bit uneven.

The median value among all ratings is a B. You could try that as an alternative baseline. That would mean an upward adjustment for 39 units and a downward adjustment for 57. That would balance out your point adjustments some.

(Also note that in a traditional grading scale, there aren't grades of "F+" and "F-"; F falls immediately below D- and there is no lower rating. Has SpiderPoison been using F+/F- ratings?)
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Old April 16th, 2008, 11:55 PM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

He does not, I don't know why I did. I did note that spider's lists have B as the average, as opposed to the C average of traditional ratings scales. I had made that list to point out that B average didn't really make sense...but I could try adjusting mine to B average sometime to see what it looks like.


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Old April 17th, 2008, 04:16 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yagyuninja View Post
Kroc, have you used Bixby's Hextreme Heroscape Worksheet?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...?do=file&id=72
That's a great reminder, yagyuninja.
Ditto on that, checking out his formula:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * Power Ranking Modifier

The power ranking modifer is basically 100% for A+, -3% for each step below A+, but for F you get an additional -11%. I.e.
A+ 100%
A 97%
A- 94%
B+ 91%
...
D- 67%
F 53%

If I ignore the weird way F's are rated I get a formula:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.61 + .25 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking)

If I assume that it is not relative to the average, then the formula is:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.61 + .39 Power Ranking / Power Ranking of A+)

Comparing this to my formula:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.33 + .66 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking)

You can see that he obviously is using a smaller adjustment for the units power. I found that this just didn't produce results in line with my feelings .

I also like my system better because with his system an average unit is adjusted down, so you can never have a weighted cost higher than official cost. But this is just a personal thing.

NecroBlade just for consistency let me translate your formula into my notation.

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.85 + .15 Power Ranking / C Power Ranking) - 30 + 30 Power Ranking / C Power Ranking

Again the thing I find most interesting is that you put a smaller weight on the Power ranking than I do. I.e. smaller adjustments.

Of course I am also interested in why you have more of an adjustment for low cost units than high cost. With your formula a unit's adjusted cost could possibly be negative, though this would mean the unit would have to have fewer than 30 points officially and a VERY low power rating to boot.

As far as what you base your adjustments on (Average versus C, versus nothing), well, I think that's really just a personal thing. I like the fact that an average unit has an official and weighted cost that is the same. You have that for a C unit, so?

By the way, the reason I always am putting something like "average power ranking, C power ranking" in the denominator is because that way scale doesn't matter as much. As long as F is basically zero you can use any scale you want. But my conversion rate is the standard one,

A+ 4.333
A 4
A- 3.666
B+ 3.333
...
D- .666
F 0

As to why these formulas both put smaller weight on the Power Ranking than I do I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I am using them in an advisory fashion. If I was just going to pay attention to the weighted cost the formula I would actually use is:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.66 + .33 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking)

Which is close to Bixby's formula, but still puts more weight on the Power ranking. Hunh

Last edited by Kroc; April 17th, 2008 at 04:19 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old April 17th, 2008, 04:24 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
He does not, I don't know why I did.
(Referring to why he has an F+ and an F-.)

This actually puts your adjustments in line with the standard grading scale. Usually D- is .666 and an F is 0. In your scale this would mean that a D- is -20 and an F is -30, which since you do have an F+ it is.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 03:05 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

If the goal is to adjust point values, why not use a straight multiplier based on the median rank (currently B)?

A+ 1.20
A 1.15
A- 1.10
B+ 1.05
B 1.00
B- 0.95
C+ 0.90
C 0.85
C- 0.80
D+ 0.75
D 0.70
D- 0.65
F 0.60

Simply multiply the unit's point cost by the above multiplier to arrive at the adjusted cost (round to the nearest 5pts). I used .05 increments, but the model could easily be changed to .03 for less deviation. Here are a few examples utilizing .05 increments:

A+
4th Mass...............85
Deathreavers.........50
Major Q9.............215
Raelin.................100
A
Kaemon Awa........140
Krav Maga...........115
Marro Stingers.......70
Marro Warriors.......60
Sir Gilbert............120
A-
Airborne Elite.......120
Braxas................230
Me-burq-sa...........55
B+
Heavy Gruts.............75
Sentinels of Jandar...115
B
(NO change)
B-
Agent Carr...........95
Jotun.................215
Mimring..............145
Sgt.Drake...........105
C+
Deathwalker 9K....125
Empress Kiova.......80
Thorgrim..............70
C
Gorillinators..........75
Taelord..............155
Einar Imperium.....120
Zettian Guards......60
C-
Ashigaru Yari.......30
Deadeye Dan.......50
Parmenio.............70
Shaolin Monks......65
D+
Acolarh...............85
Khosumet............55
Runa..................90
Sudema.............105
D
Kyntela Gwyn.......15
Spartacus..........140
D-
Dund..................70
F
Deathwalker 7k.....60
Hatamoto Taro.....80


Do these scores seem accurate??

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Old April 22nd, 2008, 06:41 AM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Messenger: Yea, that's basically my method. Changing your notation to be consistent with mine, your formula is:

Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.55 + .45 Power Rating of Unit/Median Power rating)

This means that you are putting more weight on the power ratings than most of the other formulas I've seen. But I agree that your numbers look about right to me.
This is what I found, when I looked at individual units weights of around .25 or .15 just didn't seem like they adjusted scores enough. DW7K should cost around 60 points.

By the way, in a PM Necroblade said that the reason he had the constant adjustment is because otherwise power rating doesn't matter for low cost units. On the other hand without the multiplier adjustment power rating doesn't matter for powerful units.
An interesting point, I'm not sure I agree with him but it is worth thinking about, is a power rating determined based on some absolute power scale (constant adjustment) or relative to the cost of the unit (multiplier adjustment)?
I'd guess there would be some of both, but then I need to think about which is more important. I think most power ratings are primarily determined *relative* to the cost (multiplier adjustment). Marro Warriors wouldn't get nearly as much respect at a cost of 60 or 70, and obviously they would get wiped out by most units with a cost of 100 (or they should, don't go giving me counter examples.) They get respect because they cost 50 points, and that's a relative ranking.

I remember back in the day when Taelord was being ragged on by all and sundry. People were constantly saying "Now if he was cheaper he'd be worth it." I bet he'd get much more favorable reviews at a cost of 155.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 11:57 PM
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki

Messenger, I agree, those look like very reasonable adjustments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
By the way, in a PM Necroblade said that the reason he had the constant adjustment is because otherwise power rating doesn't matter for low cost units.
One rule of thumb that would fix this is always round away from the starting value. So if you've got a -10% adjustment on a 20 point unit it still goes down to 15; a +10% adjustment will still round to 25 points.

That makes the adjustment have the desired impact on lower cost units--you'll always have some change--while maintaining the simplest possible calculation.
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