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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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#1
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How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Rankings.
I know this general topic (recosting units) has been brought up many times but I am looking for a specific formula based on Spider Poison's Power Rankings. I wasn't able to find one using the search engine.
First of all, I am not looking to use this instead of the original point cost, but as an advisory supplement when I am designing armies. I design a bunch of armies and then let people choose their favorite to speed up drafting. The formula I am currently using is: Weighted Unit Cost = Official Unit Cost * (1/3 + 2/3 * Unit Power Rating / Average Power Rating) The basic idea I am basing this on is that an average unit should have their weighted cost equal to their original cost, and this formula gives that as long as the weights are 1/k+ (k-1)/k*ratio of Unit Power Rating to Average Power Rating. The main question I have is how much of the weight should be on the ratio. I tried 1/2 and it just seemed there wasn't enough compensation for an army with weak units. Any opinions? Anyone else who has done something similar and used a different formula? I have tried several over the last year, and this is the one I am happiest with. PS I am posting this in "competitive armies" because that's where Spider Poison's rating is. Any admin who thinks it should be in "official units" or some other forum should feel encouraged to move it. |
#2
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
Kroc,
That is a fascinating idea, especially for introducing newer players to the game and a variety of units. I've got no idea, though, what a better formula would be. |
#3
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
Kroc, have you used Bixby's Hextreme Heroscape Worksheet?
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...?do=file&id=72 One of the many features it has is an army creator, and it tracks SP's ranking with each unit. Once you've created the army, one of the things it tallies up is the weighted point value of the army. I haven't paid attention to the exact way he weights it, but you might want to take a look. |
#4
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
The following is based on the idea that C is average, though the rankings seem to place it more around B. Some of the rankings have changed since I made this. But the formula is simple.
Adjusted cost = (Cost*2 + Cost*[X/100] + X)/2, where X is the # from the list below. A+ +35 A +30 A- +25 B+ +20 B +15 B- +10 C+ +5 C +0 C- -5 D+ -10 D -15 D- -20 F+ -25 F -30 F- -35 Unit....................Cost/Rank..........Adjustment 4th Mass. Line..........070/A+..........100 Deathreavers...........040/A+..........065 Major Q9.................180/A+..........230 Raelin (RotV)...........080/A+..........110 Arrow Gruts.............040/A............060 Blastatrons..............060/A............085 Cyprien Esenwein......150/A...........190 Gladiatrons..............080/A............105 Isamu.....................010/A............025 Kaemon Awa............120/A............155 Knights of Weston.....070/A............095 Krav Maga Agents.....100/A............130 Krug.......................120/A............155 Laglor.....................110/A............140 Marcu Esenwein........020/A............040 Marro Stingers.........060/A............085 Marro Warriors.........050/A............075 Me-Burq-Sa.............050/A............075 Nilfhiem..................185/A............230 Roman Legos...........050/A............075 Sir Gilbert...............105/A............135 Swog Rider..............025/A............045 Airborne Elite...........110/A-...........135 Alastair MacDirk.......110/A-...........135 Aubrien Archers........070/A-...........090 Braxas....................210/A-...........250 Eldgrim...................030/A-...........045 Major Q10...............150/A-...........180 Marcus Decimus.......100/A-...........125 Minions of Utgar.......110/A-...........135 Sonya Esenwein........045/A-...........065 Blade Gruts..............040/B+..........055 Heavy Gruts.............070/B+..........085 Marro Drones...........050/B+..........065 Nakita Agents...........120/B+..........140 Omnicron Snipers......100/B+.........120 Sentinels of Jandar.....110/B+.........130 Sgt. Drake (SotM)......170/B+.........195 Theracus...................040/B+.........055 Armoc Vipers.............065/B...........075 Charos......................210/B..........235 Concan.....................080/B...........095 Crixus......................090/B...........105 Finn.........................080/B...........095 Grimnak...................120/B...........135 Guilty McCreech.........030/B...........040 Izumi Samurai...........060/B...........070 James Murphy...........075/B...........090 Kozuke Samurai........100/B...........115 Marrden Hounds.........090/B...........105 Marrden Narubs.........030/B...........040 Marro Hive...............160/B...........180 Master Win Chiu........140/B...........160 Ne-Gok-Sa................090/B..........105 Ninjas......................110/B...........125 Ornak......................100/B...........115 Raelin (SotM)............120/B...........135 Sacred Band..............050/B..........060 Sonlen.....................160/B...........180 Syvarris...................100/B...........115 Tagawa Samurai........120/B...........135 Tarn Vikings..............050/B...........060 Tor-Kul-Na................220/B..........245 Venoc Vipers.............040/B..........050 Venoc Warlord..........120/B...........135 Warriors of Ashra......050/B...........060 Zombies..................060/B...........070 Agent Carr...............100/B-..........110 Anubian Wolves........075/B-..........085 Ashigaru Harqs.........060/B-..........070 Brunak....................110/B-..........120 Gorillinators.............090/B-..........100 Iskra Esenwein.........050/B-..........060 Jotun......................225/B-...........240 Kee-Mo-Shi..............130/B-..........140 Microcorp Agents......100/B-...........110 Mimring..................150/B-...........165 Nerak.....................050/B-...........060 Sgt. Drake (RotV).....110/B-...........120 Shaolin Monks..........080/B-..........090 Sir Hawthorne..........090/B-..........100 Sir Denrick..............100/B-..........110 Su-Bak-Na..............160/B-...........175 Tagawa Archers........065/B-..........075 Warden 816.............090/B-..........100 Ashigaru Yari...........040/C+..........045 Deadeye Dan...........060/C+..........065 Deathstalkers..........100/C+..........105 Deathwalker 8000....130/C+...........135 Deathwalker 9000....140/C+...........145 Dzu-Teh.................075/C+...........080 Empress Kiova........090/C+...........095 Johnny "Shotgun".....065/C+..........070 MacDirk Warriors.....080/C+..........085 Rechets of Bogdan....050/C+.........055 Saylind...................080/C+.........085 Shiori.....................060/C+.........065 Templar Cavalry......120/C+.........125 Thorgrim................080/C+.........085 Tornak...................100/C+.........105 Valguard................110/C+..........115 Dumutef Guard........025/C............025 Elite Onyx Vipers.....100/C............100 Kelda.....................080/C............080 Major X17...............100/C...........100 Marro Drudge..........050/C...........050 Retiarius.................090/C...........090 Roman Archers........055/C...........055 Shades..................100/C............100 Taelord..................180/C............180 The Einar Imperium..140/C...........140 Zettian Guards.........070/C...........070 Acolarh...................110/C-.........105 Hatomoto Taro.........130/C-.........125 Kyntella Gwyn..........020/C-.........015 Parmenio................090/C-.........085 Runa......................120/C-.........115 Morsbane................100/D+........090 Obsidian Guards.......100/D+........090 Sudema..................140/D+........130 Spartacus................200/D.........175 Dund......................110/D-........090 Deathwalker 7000.....100/F..........065 Khosumet................075/F..........045 Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#5
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
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#6
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
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I'm curious why you chose "C" rating as your baseline, though. It isn't really the average rating. This results in an upward adjustment in cost for 101 of the units, and a downward adjustment for just 12 units. That seems a bit uneven. The median value among all ratings is a B. You could try that as an alternative baseline. That would mean an upward adjustment for 39 units and a downward adjustment for 57. That would balance out your point adjustments some. (Also note that in a traditional grading scale, there aren't grades of "F+" and "F-"; F falls immediately below D- and there is no lower rating. Has SpiderPoison been using F+/F- ratings?) |
#7
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
He does not, I don't know why I did. I did note that spider's lists have B as the average, as opposed to the C average of traditional ratings scales. I had made that list to point out that B average didn't really make sense...but I could try adjusting mine to B average sometime to see what it looks like.
Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#8
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
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Weighted Cost = Official Cost * Power Ranking Modifier The power ranking modifer is basically 100% for A+, -3% for each step below A+, but for F you get an additional -11%. I.e. A+ 100% A 97% A- 94% B+ 91% ... D- 67% F 53% If I ignore the weird way F's are rated I get a formula: Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.61 + .25 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking) If I assume that it is not relative to the average, then the formula is: Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.61 + .39 Power Ranking / Power Ranking of A+) Comparing this to my formula: Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.33 + .66 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking) You can see that he obviously is using a smaller adjustment for the units power. I found that this just didn't produce results in line with my feelings . I also like my system better because with his system an average unit is adjusted down, so you can never have a weighted cost higher than official cost. But this is just a personal thing. NecroBlade just for consistency let me translate your formula into my notation. Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.85 + .15 Power Ranking / C Power Ranking) - 30 + 30 Power Ranking / C Power Ranking Again the thing I find most interesting is that you put a smaller weight on the Power ranking than I do. I.e. smaller adjustments. Of course I am also interested in why you have more of an adjustment for low cost units than high cost. With your formula a unit's adjusted cost could possibly be negative, though this would mean the unit would have to have fewer than 30 points officially and a VERY low power rating to boot. As far as what you base your adjustments on (Average versus C, versus nothing), well, I think that's really just a personal thing. I like the fact that an average unit has an official and weighted cost that is the same. You have that for a C unit, so? By the way, the reason I always am putting something like "average power ranking, C power ranking" in the denominator is because that way scale doesn't matter as much. As long as F is basically zero you can use any scale you want. But my conversion rate is the standard one, A+ 4.333 A 4 A- 3.666 B+ 3.333 ... D- .666 F 0 As to why these formulas both put smaller weight on the Power Ranking than I do I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I am using them in an advisory fashion. If I was just going to pay attention to the weighted cost the formula I would actually use is: Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.66 + .33 Power Ranking / Average Power Ranking) Which is close to Bixby's formula, but still puts more weight on the Power ranking. Hunh Last edited by Kroc; April 17th, 2008 at 04:19 AM. Reason: grammar |
#9
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
(Referring to why he has an F+ and an F-.)
This actually puts your adjustments in line with the standard grading scale. Usually D- is .666 and an F is 0. In your scale this would mean that a D- is -20 and an F is -30, which since you do have an F+ it is. |
#10
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
If the goal is to adjust point values, why not use a straight multiplier based on the median rank (currently B)?
A+ 1.20 A 1.15 A- 1.10 B+ 1.05 B 1.00 B- 0.95 C+ 0.90 C 0.85 C- 0.80 D+ 0.75 D 0.70 D- 0.65 F 0.60 Simply multiply the unit's point cost by the above multiplier to arrive at the adjusted cost (round to the nearest 5pts). I used .05 increments, but the model could easily be changed to .03 for less deviation. Here are a few examples utilizing .05 increments: A+ 4th Mass...............85 Deathreavers.........50 Major Q9.............215 Raelin.................100 A Kaemon Awa........140 Krav Maga...........115 Marro Stingers.......70 Marro Warriors.......60 Sir Gilbert............120 A- Airborne Elite.......120 Braxas................230 Me-burq-sa...........55 B+ Heavy Gruts.............75 Sentinels of Jandar...115 B (NO change) B- Agent Carr...........95 Jotun.................215 Mimring..............145 Sgt.Drake...........105 C+ Deathwalker 9K....125 Empress Kiova.......80 Thorgrim..............70 C Gorillinators..........75 Taelord..............155 Einar Imperium.....120 Zettian Guards......60 C- Ashigaru Yari.......30 Deadeye Dan.......50 Parmenio.............70 Shaolin Monks......65 D+ Acolarh...............85 Khosumet............55 Runa..................90 Sudema.............105 D Kyntela Gwyn.......15 Spartacus..........140 D- Dund..................70 F Deathwalker 7k.....60 Hatamoto Taro.....80 Do these scores seem accurate?? There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:22-24 |
#11
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
Messenger: Yea, that's basically my method. Changing your notation to be consistent with mine, your formula is:
Weighted Cost = Official Cost * (.55 + .45 Power Rating of Unit/Median Power rating) This means that you are putting more weight on the power ratings than most of the other formulas I've seen. But I agree that your numbers look about right to me. This is what I found, when I looked at individual units weights of around .25 or .15 just didn't seem like they adjusted scores enough. DW7K should cost around 60 points. By the way, in a PM Necroblade said that the reason he had the constant adjustment is because otherwise power rating doesn't matter for low cost units. On the other hand without the multiplier adjustment power rating doesn't matter for powerful units. An interesting point, I'm not sure I agree with him but it is worth thinking about, is a power rating determined based on some absolute power scale (constant adjustment) or relative to the cost of the unit (multiplier adjustment)? I'd guess there would be some of both, but then I need to think about which is more important. I think most power ratings are primarily determined *relative* to the cost (multiplier adjustment). Marro Warriors wouldn't get nearly as much respect at a cost of 60 or 70, and obviously they would get wiped out by most units with a cost of 100 (or they should, don't go giving me counter examples.) They get respect because they cost 50 points, and that's a relative ranking. I remember back in the day when Taelord was being ragged on by all and sundry. People were constantly saying "Now if he was cheaper he'd be worth it." I bet he'd get much more favorable reviews at a cost of 155. |
#12
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Re: How to weight units based on Spider Poison's Power Ranki
Messenger, I agree, those look like very reasonable adjustments.
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That makes the adjustment have the desired impact on lower cost units--you'll always have some change--while maintaining the simplest possible calculation. |
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