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  #13  
Old January 13th, 2009, 01:03 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Thanks KCU, not sure how I missed that.
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  #14  
Old January 13th, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Its alright. I think its put in a weird place but that's just my opinion.

I also have a suggestion for play testing these maps. Play both sides of them when your testing these maps (if you have the time that is). If you play them both immediately something that may seem "broken" to a player on one side will make more sense when starting on the other side.

I'll hopefully have a "detailed" report on Forgotten Outpost tonight to give to you all. Sometime between work and class I want to get a couple games in on one of our other "nominated" maps, I'm thinking Fort Lannister as Caught in the Middle has already got somebody else on it.

Finally, a couple comments on what I see in the other two maps (I want to try to get pre-game comments and post game comments on any map that comes through here). First, Caught in the middle, if just looks really long. The other thing is the hight. The right side (in the PDF building instructions) has height much closer to the middle, height than can be reached in 2 turns by units with 5 move. Unless I counted wrong, the other side has height that is 10 spaces away. It would take the same unit 3 turns to get onto that height.

Fort Lannister looks interesting. My only comment on that one is that the glyphs look easy enough to grab, but holding them seems nigh impossible. The defense glyph is going to be just as crucial for holding these glyphs as the attack glyph is to attack the fort because there is not jungle cover next to glyphs. I would consider switching the positioning of the attack glyph and defense glyph (and may do so after 2 games as built) just to see how it works. Everything else looks good, I especially like the fact that there are openings in the wall forcing the "defenders" to spread out a little more and choose their positioning well.

I feel awkward trying to comment on my own map as there would be bias there, so I leave that up to you all.

Last edited by KCU Master 2007; January 13th, 2009 at 01:26 PM.
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  #15  
Old January 13th, 2009, 01:43 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCU Master 2007 View Post
Finally, a couple comments on what I see in the other two maps (I want to try to get pre-game comments and post game comments on any map that comes through here). First, Caught in the middle, if just looks really long. The other thing is the hight. The right side (in the PDF building instructions) has height much closer to the middle, height than can be reached in 2 turns by units with 5 move. Unless I counted wrong, the other side has height that is 10 spaces away. It would take the same unit 3 turns to get onto that height.
Good idea on the commenting. Here's what I was thinking (or not thinking, as the case may be) on those issues for Caught in the Middle.

Size: Yes it's pretty long. It's shorter than Marr Highway, an existing BoV map though. It's also the third attempt at capturing the idea, and it's the shortest of the three. I'm not sure it can be much shorter---already the start zone separation is 13 (left) and 12 (right). That's much closer than I like. Perhaps the central zone can be squeezed narrower to stretch across the breadth of the map, giving either a little more space between start zones, or a slight shortening of the map.

Height placement: it's deliberately lopsided, but I haven't carefully thought through the implications. I want the players to have to think carefully about which side will work best for which of their troops. I put the height that was more advantageous to the split player on the side where the LoS coverage was better. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I'd overdone it. The previous draft seemed to benefit the central player too much, and I think I might have overcompensated with both the height arrangements and glyph placement.
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  #16  
Old January 13th, 2009, 01:48 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Ok, we'll see how these things play out. I would leave the center start zones how they are though. If you spread it out then their ranks are going to be spread very thin.

I guess that makes sense with the height. Again I'm curious on how it will play out.
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  #17  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:00 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Following KCU's lead, here are my initial pre-play observations on Forgotten Outpost and Fort Lannister.

In both cases the start zones confuse me a little. They seem to wilfully not use the extremes of the map. Is this to get the start zones closer to the castle structure?

My first hunch on Forgotten Outpost is that the castle side has a big advantage. The noncastle side has the attack glyph and some jungle, but the castle team has guaranteed +1 to attack and defence. My hunch is that the noncastle side needs more. Fort Lannister's Attack, Defence, Move and Initiative seem closer to what is required, but that is four figures needed to hold and I think still might not be enough. I'd also like to empahasise the asymmetry further still. Rather than adding back in what the lower team is missing (attack, defence, move), I'd like to experiment with Wannok (wound) or Ivor (range), and maybe even a Mitonsoul panic button or two.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to building and playing them. I'll probably go for Fort Lannister first, purely because I'm already testing KCU's River Crossing.

EDIT. Another thought that applies to castle maps in general and is not particular to either these two or asymmetry: what about Krug/Grimnak/Templar/Grok Riders... Large and huge melee figures are in real trouble. Is there anything we can do about this?
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  #18  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:09 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

The thing about Forgotten Outpost is that the hill immediately beside the Red Start zone. That hill not only gives a better firing position, allows you to fire on any units who are slow making it into the castle, and it also allows you access to the outer wall which completely mitigates any advantages the castle team has, it actually tilts things back in favor of the red team.

The most difficult part for the Red Team is going to be the actual entering of the castle, but that's why the road is there.

I'll let you know how it goes tonight.
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  #19  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:40 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Sounds good KCU.

I've added LongHeroscaper's map "Where The Road Ends" to the first post. The road is balanced against closer high ground and better cover.
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  #20  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:45 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

I like the broken wall feature of Fort Lannister. It makes it possible for the attacker to jump inside and go after heroes, which is nice. One specific criticism to that map - currently a double-spaced figure can only start on one side of the battlements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I'd also like to empahasise the asymmetry further still. Rather than adding back in what the lower team is missing (attack, defence, move), I'd like to experiment with Wannok (wound) or Ivor (range), and maybe even a Mitonsoul panic button or two.
Agreed. Two ideas that occurred to me:
  1. A glyph of Ivor 6 spaces from the castle wall. So anybody holding that glyph is exposed to ranged fire from the wall. You can give the non-castle side height advantage on the glyph as well, so that rushing a unit out of the castle to the glyph is similarly perilous. Maybe surround the glyph in water, so that it can't be easily claimed by an expendable squad member?
  2. a glyph of Sturla (revive!) somewhere close to the attacker starting position. This allows them to launch a wave, try to wound some heroes, and then hit the reset button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Another thought that applies to castle maps in general and is not particular to either these two or asymmetry: what about Krug/Grimnak/Templar/Grok Riders... Large and huge melee figures are in real trouble. Is there anything we can do about this?
Well, one option is to have a "stairway" somewhere alongside/inside the castle wall. It's not a perfect solution but it's an option.

Along the same lines, you have to keep in mind what any primarily melee army is going to do if they get the castle. They can't properly take advantage of the height, and we're giving the other side better access to the glyphs.
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  #21  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:52 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I'd also like to empahasise the asymmetry further still. Rather than adding back in what the lower team is missing (attack, defence, move), I'd like to experiment with Wannok (wound) or Ivor (range), and maybe even a Mitonsoul panic button or two.
Agreed. Two ideas that occurred to me:
  1. A glyph of Ivor 6 spaces from the castle wall. So anybody holding that glyph is exposed to ranged fire from the wall. You can give the non-castle side height advantage on the glyph as well, so that rushing a unit out of the castle to the glyph is similarly perilous. Maybe surround the glyph in water, so that it can't be easily claimed by an expendable squad member?
  2. a glyph of Sturla (revive!) somewhere close to the attacker starting position. This allows them to launch a wave, try to wound some heroes, and then hit the reset button.
I like both of those ideas, thanks Dok.

I'm now imagining a map with a whole range of single-use glyphs available to the side that has the terrain disadvantage: Mitonsoul, Sturla, Kelda, Oreld,...
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  #22  
Old January 13th, 2009, 03:00 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

I am currently holding the build instructions for Forgotten Outpost in my hand, and I'm about to go down into my secret lab(My basement) and build the outpost. Does anyone have any thoughts on armies that I should try on the map?


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  #23  
Old January 13th, 2009, 03:04 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthan313 View Post
I am currently holding the build instructions for Forgotten Outpost in my hand, and I'm about to go down into my secret lab(My basement) and build the outpost. Does anyone have any thoughts on armies that I should try on the map?
I'd recommend going for whatever you most feel like playing when you get your stack of cards out.

As reports come in we might want to make sure we've covered all common army builds, probably many times each, but I think for now just go where your urges take you.

Thanks for contributing to the project! (If I switched "workshop" to "project" then we'd be the TWAMP. )
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  #24  
Old January 13th, 2009, 03:06 PM
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Re: The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

In all honesty and in the best interest of this project, take army that you have taken (or seen at) to a tournament and play it against another tournament army. I think that would be the best way to determine balance in any map and be the best way to start looking for flaws.
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