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  #13  
Old April 22nd, 2013, 11:05 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Is it possible to say the Calvary figure who moved may attack any figure adjacent to the moved figure using the moved figure's attack score? To get around the "engagement rules," just use the Resistance Fighter's Priorty targetting as a guide. The attacking figure would still be considered to be horseman, so its still his turn being taken.
That would create some odd situations. Counter Strike, for example.
I don't think it would be too big of a problem. You'd just have the horse attacking with the attack score of the rider. Counter Strike would affect the horse because he would be the one making the attack.

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  #14  
Old April 22nd, 2013, 11:11 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

I think if you want to keep the spirit of Mounted Attack, it probably needs to be all of them or none of them, or the wording is going to very unwieldy. Perhaps;
After moving with Skeletal Steeds, you may choose not to attack. If you do not attack with any Skeletal Steeds, after this turn you may take a turn with each figure that was moved by Phantom Charge this turn. Those figures may only attack during those turns. You may only use Mounted Attack if you revealed an order marker on Skeletal Steeds this turn.

That may still need some revision. I'm not sure if this causes issues for squads that are not complete or other obscure rules issues. Note that this also means you can move and attack with 3 different Heroes. That could be pretty powerful. Kaemon Awa with Quick Release, Alastair with Overextend and Syvarris could give you 6 attacks a turn (I'm assuming they get all these attacks with the wording). That was a quick think, I'm sure there are more powerful combinations of medium or smaller units.
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  #15  
Old April 22nd, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

Also I think Unholy Aura needs to be changed to a 20-die ability. It seems to be a clear design element of Heroscape that combat dice are only used specifically for combat.
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  #16  
Old April 22nd, 2013, 11:24 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

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Originally Posted by bacchus View Post
Note that this also means you can move and attack with 3 different Heroes. That could be pretty powerful. Kaemon Awa with Quick Release, Alastair with Overextend and Syvarris could give you 6 attacks a turn (I'm assuming they get all these attacks with the wording). That was a quick think, I'm sure there are more powerful combinations of medium or smaller units.
Kaemon couldn't use Quick Release, since Mounted Attack is limited to only Normal attacks.

But Sylvarris - totally.

Alastair can use Overextend after taking a turn. Is attack taking a turn?

My friend was thinking Sylvarris, Guilty and Raelin galloping around for 4 attacks at range. Pretty buff, and maybe a little broken.
--
And yes, I thought about 3 heroes being moved and making attacks. This could be problematic with Raelin's mobility plus 2 other heroes attacking.

I think a balance is that the Skeletal Steeds will be a Unique Squad - so are you likely only pulling off the multi-hero move a few times. Maybe the Steeds need to drop to 4 defense. You're also investing 100-points in a strategy that might not always be effective.

There are certainly powerful non-Utgar heroes that could use the Steeds - which is why they risk taking a wound. But 1 wound might not be enough of a deterrent. Maybe non-Utgar or Valkrill simply cannot use the Steeds.

Maybe a Common Hero version would be more balanced?
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  #17  
Old April 23rd, 2013, 12:53 AM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

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Originally Posted by bobinchese View Post
I don't think it would be too big of a problem. You'd just have the horse attacking with the attack score of the rider. Counter Strike would affect the horse because he would be the one making the attack.
Ok, but how about height advantage? If the defending figure has height advantage against the steed and the rider has height advantage against the defender, how many attack and defense dice are rolled? How about range? The steed would not necessarily be attacking an adjacent figure, so would powers like Stealth Dodge apply? How about powers that modify the rider's attack dice, like Fearless Advantage?

These are just ones off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with many more if I put some thought into it. If you want to go this route, the original designers created a precedent with Commander's Strike.
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  #18  
Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:09 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobinchese View Post
I don't think it would be too big of a problem. You'd just have the horse attacking with the attack score of the rider. Counter Strike would affect the horse because he would be the one making the attack.
Ok, but how about height advantage? If the defending figure has height advantage against the steed and the rider has height advantage against the defender, how many attack and defense dice are rolled? How about range? The steed would not necessarily be attacking an adjacent figure, so would powers like Stealth Dodge apply? How about powers that modify the rider's attack dice, like Fearless Advantage?

These are just ones off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with many more if I put some thought into it. If you want to go this route, the original designers created a precedent with Commander's Strike.
In regards to CounterStrike... I'm assuming it would possibly be used to ignore CS, but then you have to fear Evil Eye protection. The same goes for Stealth Dodge. I' thinking of this concept as something along the lines of Reach.

For instances of statistical bonuses, one could even go the route of ignoring all statistical bonuses that would favor the attacker (as if it were a special attack).

In fact, you could just change it to a special attack if you wanted...

Mounted Charge Special Attack
Range Special. Attack Special.
After moving and after placing a friendly figure with "Carry" you may use Mounted Charge Special. Consider the Range and attack of Mounted Charge Special Attack to be that of the placed figure's.

Food for thoughts...

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  #19  
Old April 24th, 2013, 07:48 AM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

My bad, I didn't see the 'normal attack' stipulation earlier.

To solve Scytale's problem, I think you need to be clear who is attacking. If the unit being carried is attacking, then it needs to be clearly worded that they are taking an attack only-turn after the Skeletal Steeds. If you want the attack to be during the Skeletal Steeds turn then it needs to be a 'transfer of power' so to speak to the Skeletal Steed. e.g. 'If a Skeletal Steed moved a figure with Mounted Attack this turn, each Skeletal Steeds attack becomes equal to the attack of the figure that was moved by Mounted Attack. If a Skeletal Steed moved a figure with Mounted Attack, each Skeletal Steed can only attack a figure that is adjacent to that Skeletal Steed and the figure they moved with Mounted Attack'.

That's a mouthful. I'm not even sure it works because it is a squad. The last bit is not essential. You could explain leaving it off; the mounted figure is attacking an opponent and then jumping off the other side of the steed. It just makes less intuitive sense as that figure isn't engaged at the time the attack is taking place on the board.
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  #20  
Old April 24th, 2013, 07:50 AM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

'If a Skeletal Steed moved a figure with Mounted Attack this turn, each Skeletal Steeds attack becomes equal to the attack of the figure that was moved by Mounted Attack.

Actually this might need more clarification, related to Scytale's concerns before. I think it is clear that the base attack of the carried figure becomes the base attack of the Skeletal Steed, and the steed can get height bonus if it has it. But I don't know if that is 100% clear.
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  #21  
Old April 24th, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

You could go much simpler and do a simple "steed and rider combined" sort of power. Like +2 attack if the Steed carried a figure.
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  #22  
Old April 24th, 2013, 01:11 PM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

A few suggestions.

1. Change the class to "Mount." Cavalry would refer to the rider, not the actual horse/skeleton. It also puts them in the same class as Brunak, another Utgar unit that has the "Carry" ability.

2. Make the Skeletal Steeds Common/Uncommon Heroes. This makes the complicated wording and potential overpowered abilities much easier to fix. If you feel it's more thematic to use three of the Skeletal Steeds, you can add:

Utgar Mount Movement Bonding: After revealing an order marker on this card and before taking a turn with this unit, you may move up to two other Utgar Mounts you control. (This also gives you synergy with Brunak)

2. Change Phantom Charge to read:

Phantom Charge: Once per turn, before moving this Skeletal Steed, choose a friendly small or medium figure adjacent to this Skeletal Steed. After your move, place the chosen figure adjacent to this Skeletal Steed and take a single turn with the chosen figure, during which the chosen figure may only attack.

3. You can drastically lower the cost of the figures. I'd suggest putting them at 25(?) points each(All three would only cost 75, but you can only attack with one each turn and you risk taking a wound from Unholy Aura).
You might want to consider dropping Unholy Aura and adding Disengage for a 10 point increase. Increasing the move value to 7 might make them more versatile, and would add another 5 points to the cost.


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  #23  
Old April 25th, 2013, 12:45 AM
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Re: Skeletal Steeds - feedback?

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I had thought about a Common Hero version, but then it went back to the sculpt available. I like the look of a Marrden Hound replacement, but agree that Groks are more readily available.

Synergy with Brunak would be awesome, and I like the idea of changing them to "Mounts."

The Unholy Aura was to try and prevent Raelin or multi-hero hero abuse when they were a 3-figure unique squad.

There certainly sounds like some interest, so I'll work on some playtesting and re-wording and see how it goes.

Thanks again!
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