The Golden Compass and Religion NOW LOCKED

[Havokscry]

Originally Posted by allskulls

[Billtog]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

OK, I've spent four pages of this thread falling on the side of the non-churchies, but Billtog, Aslan is Jesus represented as a mythical figure. It's a fantasy book that doubles as an allegory. It is meant as a way for children to understand larger concepts. I'm not a religious man (any more), but I have an immense amount of respect for CS Lewis. It is far easier to explain many of the themes of the Christian faith to a child if you can relate them back to the story of Aslan... who is not a tame lion.

Aslan may be representative of Jesus, just like YAHWEH is representative of God, but that doesn't mean YAHWEH is God. I never really saw Aslan as being Jesus, because I'm either a) stupid or b) impervious to brainwashing. I think that if I can sit through a movie and read an entire book series without even picking up on the Christian themes (be it for 'a' or 'b'), I think our children will be able to sit through a movie without becoming serial killers.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

..Any Christian parent who did NOT object to The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe has absolutely no right to object to The Golden Compass.

Lol.. I've been following your semi logical discussions and semi emotional contention with Johnny for a bit.. but I have to say, this makes the least sense out of anything on the thread. By far.

I will read books to my kids that encourage thier development, spiritually, inellectually, creatively and emotionally. The writings of CS Lewis span that entire range. (Narnia series, the Four Loves, Mere Christianity, Perelandra series, the list goes on and on..) The spirit of these writings is love and courage and all sorts of excellent character qualities.

When one looks at Pullman's work though, we see a creative emotional attack against things that make him angry. (His anger at poor treatment by the church, his misconceptions of God, etc) The spirit of these writings is revenge, rebellion, etc.. just not the sort of things I'm deciding to teach them.

[mrbistro]

Originally Posted by DoesntCompute

That said, I won't be letting my kids watch Compass even though we own a copy of Narnia because I am trying to teach them the message put forth by Narnia and the message in Compass contradicts what I am trying to teach them.

And that totally makes sense.

Originally Posted by DoesntCompute

I might still watch the movie and/or read the book. I try very hard to avoid being one of those people that bans something without really knowing what it is.

As does this.

Nicely said.

[DoesntCompute]

Originally Posted by DrRansom

Lol.. I've been following your semi logical discussions and semi emotional contention with Johnny for a bit.. but I have to say, this makes the least sense out of anything on the thread. By far.

I will read books to my kids that encourage thier development, spiritually, inellectually, creatively and emotionally. The writings of CS Lewis span that entire range. (Narnia series, the Four Loves, Mere Christianity, Perelandra series, the list goes on and on..) The spirit of these writings is love and courage and all sorts of excellent character qualities.

When one looks at Pullman's work though, we see a creative emotional attack against things that make him angry. (His anger at poor treatment by the church, his misconceptions of God, etc) The spirit of these writings is revenge, rebellion, etc.. just not the sort of things I'm deciding to teach them.

While I agree with you, I think the point IMax was trying to make is that it is hypocritical to object to Compass because it is propaganda aimed at kids when Narnia at some levels is propoganda aimed at kids. The messages are extremely different but they are both propaganda.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by Billtog

Aslan may be representative of Jesus, just like YAHWEH is representative of God, but that doesn't mean YAHWEH is God. .

Actually, YAHWEH is name used in traditionan German theology as a transliteration of the biblical JHVH (basically it's original biblical name of God, American's sometimes transliterate it into Jehovah). Pullman in those books also uses the words "Adonai" (Hebrew for The Lord) and "The Allmighty".

But even if Pullman is clear about which God he is attacking, your point is still valid, if you can separate your entertainment from your intellectual reasoning, well then cheers. I'm teaching my kids to do that by watching Star Wars with them.

[Billtog]

Originally Posted by mrbistro

And that totally makes sense.

As does this.

Nicely said.

Agreed.
If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to see it... but they shouldn't try to ruin it for the rest of us.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by Billtog

Agreed.
If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to see it... but they shouldn't try to ruin it for the rest of us.

That might be the root of our disagreement. I'm not asking you not to watch it at all.. I don't care what you do. My purpose here is letting unknowing parents know what the books are all about. Thats all. I don't want them to start reading the books to thier kids and all of a sudden they get to where Azirel starts railing agains the church and God and be like.. what have I just read to my kids?? Well.. Now they can make an informed decision.

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by DrRansom

Lol.. I've been following your semi logical discussions and semi emotional contention with Johnny for a bit.. but I have to say, this makes the least sense out of anything on the thread. By far.

I will read books to my kids that encourage thier development, spiritually, inellectually, creatively and emotionally. The writings of CS Lewis span that entire range. (Narnia series, the Four Loves, Mere Christianity, Perelandra series, the list goes on and on..) The spirit of these writings is love and courage and all sorts of excellent character qualities.

When one looks at Pullman's work though, we see a creative emotional attack against things that make him angry. (His anger at poor treatment by the church, his misconceptions of God, etc) The spirit of these writings is revenge, rebellion, etc.. just not the sort of things I'm deciding to teach them.

Ransom, I'm afraid your aim is off, because you totally missed the point.

If you're attempting to promote Christianity to your children and don't want to expose them to alternative viewpoints, by all means don't take them to see the Compass movie. That's your right as a parent. We all shield our children from something. The quote you pulled from my previous post is out of context, however, because I was specifically replying to a completely different point.

I have heard many complaints that the reason people don't like The Golden Compass is because it is propaganda aimed at children to persuade them toward a specific religion. This argument is made by people who actually own the entire boxed set of The Chronicles of Narnia, and yet take umbrage to someone preaching to their children through a novel. I am merely pointing out the massive inconsistency and hypocrisy evidenced in the argument many of the people here are espousing. Those making the argument may not even realize the hypocrisy, and some of them will no doubt tell me I am wrong even after I point it out. Some people won't see the facts if you staple them to their foreheads.

I wanted to ask you, DrRansom, how many of these books have you read? Or do you take your knowledge of these books from what other evangelical Christians tell you? Are you actually able to point directly to the parts of the novels that bother you, or are you taking at their word a group of people who tell you that these books are the works of sneaky, underhanded, malignant God-haters? How much do you know about Pullman that you learned on your own? Because I'm reading The Golden Compass, and all that dastardly stuff you described hasn't really surfaced yet. Courage and pluck, sure, but so far no revenge or hatred, at least not in the heroes. Maybe that's all at the back of the book, and they're saving the best for last.

If you don't want to let your children go see the movie, I don't care. I didn't go with my daughter to see Enchanted, because it looked really boring. I don't let my kids watch my favorite movies (Fight Club, Pulp Fiction, Boondock Saints) because the content in those films is not something I think kids should see.

I have not, and never will, block my kids from seeing a movie because it might espouse a particular religious viewpoint. My kids are Catholic, and in order for them to understand what they believe, they need to understand what they don't believe. If my kids engage in extensive soul-searching and decide they aren't Catholic any more, that's up to them. I consider it my job to present them with the information they need to make an informed decision. Hiding them from stuff that might not dovetail into the religious views they have learned so far is not helping them. It is doing them a disservice, and leaving them unprepared to defend their faith.

[countblah]

I read the Golden Compass about 4 years ago, before it was under a great focus. I didn't care for it, so I don't think I'll be seeing the movie. And my not caring for it had nothing to do with the religious themes. I found it to be plodding and shoddily constructed. I will say this much, Billtog. We have a great many works that are great on their own, yet much better when the mythology behind them is considered, and not just taken in a vacuum. Camus' "The Plauge" was about more than an ailment, Orwell's "Animal Farm" was about more than animals on a farm, "Invasion of the body snatchers" about communist paranoia more than anything else, and the Chronicles of Narnia are Christian allegory. You can read them as though they were written in a vacuum, but that entails a very juvenile reading, and means you get far less out of them than you otherwise might.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

Some people won't see the facts if you staple them to their foreheads..
.. I don't let my kids watch my favorite movies.. because the content in those films is not something I think kids should see...

Yeah, so I'm ignoring all your questions and comments to me that you could easily have answered from reading my posts, and I don't care to staple anything to your forhead so I'll make it brief.. why is it such a big deal to you that some of us interpret the works of devout anti-christians as not child appropriate?

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by I already

If you don't want to let your children go see the movie, I don't care.