Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

[obfuscatedhippo]

Sorry I can't believe this debate on WTF is still going on.

Beyond the spirit of the name Wait then Fire implying "wait - don't move" the action of leaving one hex and moving to another requires at least 1 movement point - therefore the 4th mass figure is moving and the squad is not allowed to use WFT.

In order to even be eligible to be attacked with a leaving engagement the figure must be attempting to move. Granted the figure doesn't make it to the desired hex in my opinion they spent 1 Move to leave engagement - therefore they moved.

[Grimnak]

I must say this is turning out to be quite the enjoyable conversation. That said, I agree with @obfuscatedhippo , especially his last paragraph. In my opinion, you can't test the waters of trying to disengage for better positioning AND still get WTF if you fail.

[happyjosiah]

This conversation really seems to hinge on whether or not people are reading what the rules ACTUALLY say (WTF still works) or what they think the rules should more sensibly say (that it doesn't).

[cmgames]

Originally Posted by Ericth74

Playing some 1 vs 1 vs 1 next week, with 450 pt/18 fig armies, free for all. It's my 1st time doing this. Do you guys change your strategy with your team build when facing multiple teams?

The other way to keep the ganging-up or turtleing from happening is to play kill-the-player-to-your-right (or -left). The first player to eliminate the player to their right (or left) is the winner. That way, if you attack the person who is attacking you, you are actually helping someone else win.

~Z

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Battle for the Underdark Rulebook

Leaving an engagement: Your figure may move around an opponent's figure that it is engaged with, but as soon as your figure moves away (onto a space that's not adjacent), the opponent's figure may take a "leaving engagement attack" on your figure.

This seems pretty clear to me. The move happens first, and then any leaving engagement attack happens when that figure moves onto the space that's not adjacent. As soon as that figure reaches the space that is not adjacent the opponent can roll for a leaving engagement attack. If the 4th/10th die, it is still a move and therefore WTF is broken.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo

A symmetrical map will help to balance out the game.

3-way fights can quickly turn into a 2-on-1 if one side starts off too strong. Or one player hangs back until the other two are weakened from battling each other - trying to hold out to be last man or woman standing.

In some games, we've used a Points Destroyed scoring system to encourage more aggressive combat. All of your units might be destroyed but if you destroyed more than another player - you can still 'win.'

Excellent question.

Obfuscatedhippo describes my preferred form of 3-player 'Scape. Keep track of what you kill. A squad of Krav is 100 points; if you kill one of them, then write down 33 points. Kaemon Awa has 4 health; if you put two wounds on him, write down 60 points. And so on. Whoever has the most points at the end wins. Some people think this system has confusing corner cases but that's because those people aren't following those simple instructions. Cyprien heals, so he can, by the time he's ultimately killed, give out way more than his 150 points.

Other people talk about playing "kill the person on your left." In a game like that, your goal is to kill one player, to your right or to your left, and so on in a circle. When one player has successfully eliminated his or her target, that player is the winner.

The way you're describing is a pure free-for-all. I've played that way, too. As you guess in your post, it does change your strategy. For one thing, it involves some diplomacy, and for another, it promotes a "turtle" strategy, in which you try to stay back a bit as the other players fight each other. But you can't do nothing, either.

Please let us know which way you choose to play and how it goes. Thanks for letting us be a part of it!

[mac122]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I don't think a consequence of "WTF allowed" ruling would be that the disengaged 4th Mass didn't move at all and thus you could activate 5 different members in a turn. The disengage attempt happened during the movement phase; there isn't a separate "disengage if you are immediately moving away from an opponent on your first hex" phase. The question is if during the movement phase the 4th Mass moved.

IMO, WTF should be legal because he never leaves the space. Is there really a difference between "move 0" and not moving? The logic for that difference would probably be that Warforged Soldiers do get their autoshield (added when "rolling defense") against Majestic Fires (which lowers their defense to 0, they can still "roll 0") and do not get it against Paralyzing Stare (which does not allow them to "roll defense"). I am not sure if the same distinction exists for move 0 and not moving. I know "move 0" is frequently cited in FAQs but I think it's used so players understand they can use powers that say "after moving and before attacking" even if they don't move.

But he does leave the space. It's only the "rules resolution" section of the text that references the space the figure was on. You can't have an LEA unless the figure moved out of engagement. WTF would not be in effect for any other of the 4th on that turn.

[Dad_Scaper]

^ currently has 9,999 posts. Make the next one count!

[mac122]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

^ currently has 9,999 posts. Make the next one count!

Hopefully, the Remarkable Post Counts thread qualifies.

Originally Posted by happyjosiah

This conversation really seems to hinge on whether or not people are reading what the rules ACTUALLY say (WTF still works) or what they think the rules should more sensibly say (that it doesn't).

No, WTF does not still work when reading what the rules ACTUALLY say.


Wait Then Fire
If none of the 4th Massachusetts Line move this turn, add 1 die to their attack.


To incur an LEA, the 4th Mass figure had to move out of engagement. If the figure receives a wound, the wound is considered to have occurred on the space it started on for "rules resolution". That "rules resolution" happens after the figure moves and after the LEA result. The figure moved and therefore negates WTF for the rest of this turn.

[happyjosiah]

Originally Posted by mac122

To incur an LEA, the 4th Mass figure had to move out of engagement.

Really? What space did it move to?



Let's consider the following scenario. It's a three-player free-for-all game.

I have a figure with move 5 engaged with one of Bob's figures. 5 spaces away is another of Bob's figures who he really wants to protect.

But 2 spaces away to the other side, Alice has a figure.

I ask Bob if I can leave to go attack Alice, but secretly I want to attack Bob's other figure.

If I have to actually MOVE before the engagement attack occurs, Bob's plan of action would be clear: make the attack if I move towards his figure, don't make the attack if I move towards Alice's, knowing that if I take a single move the opposite way, I can't reach the figure he wants to protect.

The way I interpret the rules, rather than moving, I should say to Bob "I want to break engagement". Before I make a move, he needs to decide to make or forgo his LEA, without seeing which way my figure moves first.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don't have anything to add to my own posts above, but I am curious, Mac, to hear you expand on that a bit. As I understand what you are saying, this is the order of things:

1. Player A indicates a 4th figure will move.
2. Player B rolls for an LEA, gets a skull.
3.
4. The indicated figure gets a wound.
5.
6. The indicated figure is removed from the board.
7.

Are you saying that the "moving" happens at Step 5? Or somewhere else? You write that "the 4th Mass figure had to move out of engagement," but does that mean that something happens between my steps 1 and 2?

Let's imagine a 3-player game, playing with the format described by obfuscatedhippo, above, in which you get points for doing damage. Player A controls the 4th, one of which is engaged with a Tarn Viking controlled by Player B. Player A moves the 4th away from the Tarn, triggering a LEA, and moves it one space, adjacent to a Nakita Agent controlled by Player C. Now an Engagement Strike is triggered. In this format, it matters which happens first: the LEA or the Engagement Strike. So, which is it?

Like I wrote above, I'm more than happy to accept Ry's answer, and his reason for it: allowing WTF under those circumstances is not in the spirit of the rules, and seems a little "game-y" in a way that Scape normally is not. Fine; I can't disagree with that ruling. But I am curious about your answer, Mac, if you can expand on it.

[happyjosiah]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

This seems pretty clear to me. The move happens first, and then any leaving engagement attack happens when that figure moves onto the space that's not adjacent. As soon as that figure reaches the space that is not adjacent the opponent can roll for a leaving engagement attack. If the 4th/10th die, it is still a move and therefore WTF is broken.

I change my answer. This quote from the Rulebook convinced me. No WTF.