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  #61  
Old March 25th, 2018, 08:17 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

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By Pseudo-bonding, are you referring to Assassination? My version of Shadow Shift happens on the Assassin's turn, and the Assassin's turn only.
Yes, the Assassination ability. Swapping figures around doesn't bother me, even on a different card's turn. To me, that's the core design of this unit, and the part that opens up numerous interesting possibilities and works well for different playstyles. Assassination is pseudo-bonding, a bonus turn based on taking another turn. Always powerful, of course, but I don't just see it as a key part of this design. Let some future bonding(ish) unit handle that.
I disagree, I think the bonus turn + shifting defines the assassin. I’ll write more later.
I have play tested with Assassination, and I think that the Assassin would work alright without Assassination, but I have to say that the Assassin is much more fun to play with Assassination. I like how it helps the Drow army, but it isn't as "overt" as the original Shift/bonding was, and it doesn't make you feel like you need to rely on the Assassin as much. Your suggestion of boosting the attack to 5, I think would be necessary to make the Assassin usable without Assassination, especially if the defense is lowered to 2. Assassination really helps bring the theme of unit that waits for the right moment to take action. I don't think that it will inhibit future design space, but I can see why that would be a concern. What if it were changed to only work after taking a turn with the Assassin? This would somewhat remove the feel of a unit that waits for opportunity, and force you to plan ahead for when you want to use Assassination.
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  #62  
Old March 25th, 2018, 08:55 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Assassination really helps bring the theme of unit that waits for the right moment to take action.
I can see that. It's still true with normal order markers, but certainly much harder to time.

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I don't think that it will inhibit future design space, but I can see why that would be a concern.
That wasn't a huge concern at the time of the vote, but it was a reason for a negative vote. Take that how you will. Personally I don't think we're going to do anything like a bonding squad for the Drow in the future, ever, so I'm not concerned myself.

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What if it were changed to only work after taking a turn with the Assassin? This would somewhat remove the feel of a unit that waits for opportunity, and force you to plan ahead for when you want to use Assassination.
That would be brutally powerful for an assassin unit. You couldn't do it with 5 attack dice, that's for sure. It also doesn't remove one of the bigger concerns, the large movement range that double turns allow for. Whether following a squad turn (thanks to Shadow Shift) or its own turn, the large movement range likely opens up things like a turn 1 glyph grab.
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  #63  
Old March 25th, 2018, 10:36 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

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Assassination really helps bring the theme of unit that waits for the right moment to take action.
I can see that. It's still true with normal order markers, but certainly much harder to time.
Saying that it is true with order markers is true, but that extends to literally every unit in the game. I feel that the theme of an assassin should take a step further beyond just placing your order markers well.
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I don't think that it will inhibit future design space, but I can see why that would be a concern.
That wasn't a huge concern at the time of the vote, but it was a reason for a negative vote. Take that how you will. Personally I don't think we're going to do anything like a bonding squad for the Drow in the future, ever, so I'm not concerned myself.
I have ideas for a Drow Unique hero Commander, or possibly a Unique Squad, that has normal bonding with All Heros, and squads, but no figure exists with availability, so no real testing has ever been done with it. I can see how Assassination could prevent a Common Drow squad from ever having Bonding, but I don't think that a Common Squad would be the right way to do bonding for the Drow, because the Deepwyrm don't have it. I can see that the version of Assassination I have posted there, as well as Kinseth's, does not restrict the activation to commons, however with the version I am testing, I have added that restriction. I consider also including the restriction of revealing an order marker, so that bonding would never activate it, but I'm not sure I want to restrict bonding from activating it. I don't know if I'll ever even make the Bonding unique Drow anyway.
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What if it were changed to only work after taking a turn with the Assassin? This would somewhat remove the feel of a unit that waits for opportunity, and force you to plan ahead for when you want to use Assassination.
That would be brutally powerful for an assassin unit. You couldn't do it with 5 attack dice, that's for sure. It also doesn't remove one of the bigger concerns, the large movement range that double turns allow for. Whether following a squad turn (thanks to Shadow Shift) or its own turn, the large movement range likely opens up things like a turn 1 glyph grab.
I definitely wouldn't do it with 5 base attack. You would only get 5 attack from using Assassination, just like Van Nessing. I've thought about restricting the bonus attack to only affect heros, or Unique figures, as heros and uniques would make more sense for an assassin to target for an assassination.

Regarding turn one glyph grabs, Otonashi can already do this, and she's only 10 points. Van Nessing, and the Death Chasers of Thesk can also do it on certain maps. Any figure that holds a glyph is a high priority target, and with just 2 or 3 defense, you probably don't want a figure with the potential of the Assassin to stay there. With Kinseth's version, you could relatively quickly switch a common to get her off of the glyph, but with yours, and my version, you have to take another turn with the Assassin, to get the assassin off the glyph. So yes you can do that, but it will probably just get the assassin killed, and slow the development of the rest of your army.
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  #64  
Old March 25th, 2018, 10:54 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

To be honest - and not confrontational - as the designer, you have to make a decision and stop trying to please everyone. I think it's great you're workshopping with those who are invested in the design and even some judges in the SoV...and yet, I think you're working yourself into too many circles. I think you've reached the point where you need to appreciate all the feedback, choose a direction YOURSELF (as the designer) and move on. Because you have been working this design more than anyone else...ultimately you have the say on how you want it to work. Regardless of what you decide, there will be detractors and those that disagree. Accept that, and design something fun, beautiful and worthy of the SoV and then come back and show the community what you've got. Sorry for being frank...but I just see you running yourself into the ground time and time again with all the going back and forth between different people who all have different ideas where the design should go.

Just the way I see it...not meant to be offensive.
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  #65  
Old March 25th, 2018, 11:19 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
To be honest - and not confrontational - as the designer, you have to make a decision and stop trying to please everyone. I think it's great you're workshopping with those who are invested in the design and even some judges in the SoV...and yet, I think you're working yourself into too many circles. I think you've reached the point where you need to appreciate all the feedback, choose a direction YOURSELF (as the designer) and move on. Because you have been working this design more than anyone else...ultimately you have the say on how you want it to work. Regardless of what you decide, there will be detractors and those that disagree. Accept that, and design something fun, beautiful and worthy of the SoV and then come back and show the community what you've got. Sorry for being frank...but I just see you running yourself into the ground time and time again with all the going back and forth between different people who all have different ideas where the design should go.

Just the way I see it...not meant to be offensive.
You're not wrong. I realize that I need to go with what I want out of the figure, but the nature of the SoV and the C3V means that I have to appeal to them. I thought the original design was amazing, but it didn't get through. I have to figure out what I need to do to keep a similar feel and as my original design, while still trying to get it to a point where I think the inner-sanctum will give it a majority vote. I'm liking where aspects of the design are going, and I don't like certain other aspects that have been suggested. I like Assassination as a replacement for both the bonding, and Sneak Attack. On my own I've been playing with the defense and attack values to see what feels best. I'm trying to make it my own figure, but I have to listen to others to make sure that the design isn't going to get shot down again.
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  #66  
Old March 25th, 2018, 11:31 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I really like your custom figures.
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  #67  
Old March 25th, 2018, 11:45 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
To be honest - and not confrontational - as the designer, you have to make a decision and stop trying to please everyone. I think it's great you're workshopping with those who are invested in the design and even some judges in the SoV...and yet, I think you're working yourself into too many circles. I think you've reached the point where you need to appreciate all the feedback, choose a direction YOURSELF (as the designer) and move on. Because you have been working this design more than anyone else...ultimately you have the say on how you want it to work. Regardless of what you decide, there will be detractors and those that disagree. Accept that, and design something fun, beautiful and worthy of the SoV and then come back and show the community what you've got. Sorry for being frank...but I just see you running yourself into the ground time and time again with all the going back and forth between different people who all have different ideas where the design should go.

Just the way I see it...not meant to be offensive.
This is truly superior advice.

Make something you love. Neither the SoV nor the C3V is looking for the same thing that you are in a design. The test for whether something belongs in the canon is not the same as something that is a fun, good custom that excites you.

I know you're invested in this mini, more than most people get invested in minis. And it's a *good* mini for the canon. If what you want is to make a custom you're passionate about, then go for it. Make *that*, as Sir H. says. If, on the other hand, you want to make a custom that gets accepted by the SoV and its partner, the C3V, then try taking the advice of people who are trying to help you. People who know those ropes.

You have Scytale in this thread giving you advice. If you want to get through the SoV and C3V process, then I urge you to consider the (modest) changes he's recommending. The dude knows his FanScape. If that's what you want.

My attitude when reviewing designs is essentially what Scy has advocated for above: identify what really makes this design tick. Strip away all the ornamentation, and leave that. If you can do away with the pseudo-bonding, which I agree with Scy is not necessary to the theme and looks like baggage the assassin is dragging through an airport parking lot, then leave it behind. You don't need it for a quality custom, and without it, the people who argue that you've burdened the Assassin with needless junk may set their objections aside.

But it's your call, of course. There is nothing wrong with making a fine custom that is not in the SoV. Scytale himself has a whole thread full of them. I'm especially partial to the little jumping fire things he made. And the science fiction RPG party he made. Make your thing, share it with the world, and enjoy. If you want to get it in the SoV, though, then consider a very, very, very slightly different direction, that is somewhat more restrained. I think it would have a better shot, and Scytale would know.

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  #68  
Old March 28th, 2018, 04:58 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Scytale has some good points & thoughts. Though he is only 1 judge, and several other judge gave positive rep on my original re-work, and posted in the thread how much they liked it.

I think using the X marker to take A turn with Drow Assassin is the hallmark power on this card and really hits the theme of what an assassin is all about. Lurking in the shadows, waiting for his moment to strike when your target least expects it.

Having to place a numbered order marker to take a turn with Drow Assassin feels rather bland to me, and doesn't stand out. Not to mention, in the whole course of a round, it is one extra move and attack for the Drow Assassin, Dropping the power level down by 1/3 from the previous iteration.

The shifting power of the assassin moving up and getting into position on another figures turn also feels very thematic.

You could take out the bonus attack for using the power and just give him standard 4/2 or 5/2. The boost to attack probably isn't even really needed, its the surprise attack nature of this power that is more important.

Assassination
After taking a turn with a Drow hero or squad, you may reveal the X order marker on this card, if you do, you may take a turn with this Drow Assassin.

Let's be honest here, there is alot of backlash about a Full Bonding Drow unit ever being produced, so the worry about limiting a future design doesn't feel warranted.

I think this design gives enough bend while still capturing the essence of this unit. It takes into consideration issues with the past design and the push back it had.

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  #69  
Old March 28th, 2018, 07:13 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Great points Kinseth. Absolutely agree with your reasoning here.
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  #70  
Old March 29th, 2018, 03:17 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Well said kinseth.
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  #71  
Old March 31st, 2018, 07:57 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I am making this post to clear my own head, and to talk about the Assassin.

The Assassin was the second design that I wanted to submit to the SoV after Maltis Tez. Since then I have had many ideas that could someday reach the SoV, but I don't know if any of them ever will. Way back when I was still working on Maltis Tez, I had just gotten my first Dungeon set. I liked the idea of the Drow.(except Peloth) Elves were my favorite faction when I was younger. I hadn't really played D&D at the time, and the idea of Albino Dark Elves was pretty cool in my eyes. I even brought them to the first tournament I ever attended. My army lost every game at that tournament. While I'm sure part of it was a lack of experience, I remember wanting to try and make the Drow more fun to play, so that others who played with the Drow could have a more enjoyable experience.

The Assassin went through many iterations, and I set the design aside several times. The idea of having some unique form of bonding, and the ability to switch places with other figures, was a part of the design from very early on. I also played around with Shadow auras, and shadow/dungeon themed defense abilities. Hide in Darkness was not a part of the design until very close to the end. One day when I was looking through the current SoV submissions, I took a look at the Beakface Archer, and Rogue. These two designs for some reason sparked my interest in the Drow again, and I gave the Assassin Sneak Attack only after seeing it on the Beakface Rogue. After showing the design to a few friends, for feedback, playtests, and setup situations, it finally felt like the Drow Assassin's design was making the Drow more enjoyable in a way that could get through the SoV. With high hopes, I sent it to the Pre-SoV workshop to see if there was anything I should be worried about before sending it to the SoV. A week later I submitted it to the SoV.

My plan for if the Assassin were to fail, was to split Shadow Shift and it's bonding apart. Shadow Shift would be activated on the Assassin's turn, I would raise the base attack to 4, and Common Drow Bonding would replace Sneak Attack since I didn't think there would be room on the card. I would test this to see if it affected the balance, and submit within a few weeks. I liked my twist on Bonding, and thought it was a more interesting way of doing it, but this would have accomplished the same thing basically.

When Kinseth posted his design, I thought it was interesting, and I liked that I was getting some cool ideas from others. Unfortunately, there were aspects of it that I saw as potential issues, and I did not intend to use it as it was. There was a lot of love for Kinseth's design, which caught me off guard. I wasn't sure how to take this, because I had my own ideas. What I did like about Kinseth's design was Assassination. Seeing the "overly overt" statement in the "failed to pass review" post on the SoV page, made me feal that full bonding could see push back, and when I asked Bigga, He said it would probably not be the best way to go. Assassination felt like a great replacement for it. It would still allow for you to play with the Deepwyrm, and it would take the Assassin out of the spot light since she wouldn't be activated as much.

I like to keep people happy, and I try to avoid conflict when I can. I didn't want to use all of Kinseth's design, but I saw that a lot of people did. I expressed this to a few people, including Bigga. Bigga recommended that I playtest Kinseth's design, suggesting that I would like it more once I saw it in action, and even offered to playtest the design himself, so I could see it used against myself. Admittedly, I did like the design a bit better after seeing it played.

Kinseth's design, to put it simply, is my initial submission, if you took the bonding out of Shadow shift, and replaced Sneak Attack with Divine Mission. My problem with it, is that Shadow Shift has not been modified to account for the bonding being removed, preventing it from activating on the Assassin's turn, and leaving it as a passive ability that activates on other figures turn's. This seems like cool idea for getting the Assassin out onto the map, and into position. Unfortunately in my own playtests, usually it leaves the Assassins in forward positions, and they can die very quickly if you aren't careful. This was, to a lesser extent, a weakness of the original Assassin submission. They died quickly once they reached the front, and it helped to balance them since they could bond every turn you took. The difference here is that you don't get any use out of them for switching, and now you have less Deepwyrm up near the front, which is what your front lines are usually made up of, and that make's it harder to get board control. Once they meet the enemy front lines, they are a higher priority target, and they usually die quickly. Did the enemy run through an opening? Then they die. Did you loose more Deepwyrm than expected, and get pushed back? Then they die. This is made worse when the defense is lowered to 2, which has been suggested multiple times. Hide in Darkness is not reliable, unless it's a Dungeon map, and even then, with 2 defense, the Assassin dies more easily than any other Drow. All that said, there have been games where the Assassin has worked out despite all this.

I have two designs that I have been playtesting. One of them is Kinseth's, and the other being basically what I intended to do if the design failed, but with Assassination replacing the Common Drow Bonding. I don't like Shadow Shift activating on other figure's turns if it isn't a form of bonding, and I want to include Assassination. Scytale and Dad Scaper have stated that they don't like Assassination, but generally don't have a strong opinion either way on when Shadow Shift activates. Kinseth, and most of the people who have posted about the Assassin in this thread, seem to be in the boat that wants Shadow Shift to activate on other Drow figure's turn's, and want to include Assassination.

I have on several occasions considered passing the design on to Kinseth. I know that his design is liked, and that he can defend it inside the C3V in a way that I cannot. I think it would be likely to get passed review. It might even get all the way through the SoV. Despite my concerns with it, the design isn't bad, and having played with it, I know that it is a fun design. It has a flaw which I have pointed out above, but that could be seen as a balancing factor, or just something to work/play around. My own take on the design has the same issue, it just doesn't usually come up until after you take at least one turn with the Assassin. At the end of it all, even if I don't like it as much, Kinseth's design would help the Drow faction become more fun to play with, and that is what I wanted most out of the Assassin.

All of this is a long winded way to say that I am conflicted, and I don't know what to do.

Leaf_It - who has spent the last 3 hours typing, reading, re-typing, re-reading, and editing this post.
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Old March 31st, 2018, 11:13 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Read it all mr leaf. Step 1. Make something you enjoy playing. Step 2. Submit it to the sov if you would like and if you think its ready. In your customs thread take or leave others advice at your own discretion. Your assassin inspired all the ideas that have been discussed. I loved the assassination 2 ability so much along with your shadow shift movement that its inspiring me to want to make scape cards again. Thats what its about really. Having fun with our toys, and inspiring others creativity so they can also have fun. Keep up the good work. I have 0 designs in the sov but have designed over 100 cards over the years. I just dont need their approval on my designs to have fun with them.
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question on use of unit abilities Captain_Gerbil Official Rules & FAQ's 6 August 17th, 2007 01:58 PM


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