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  #145  
Old June 26th, 2015, 03:01 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

First of all, I do think like this, and yes I know it is fine.

Second of all, at the time you began engaging in these negotiations, this seller *already* had someone in his thread complaining that he got cold feet after reaching an agreement. So you knew, or you should have known if you had taken the trouble to find and to read his thread, that this might happen.

Third of all, he simply doesn't have to sell to you. I know it's disappointing, but he doesn't have to. There's no law saying he does.

Fourth of all, I am here to make sure nobody gets ripped off. You didn't send him your money - unlike the other guy who tried to buy from him - and he didn't send you his stuff. Nobody got ripped off. You're exactly the way you were, except you are also disappointed.

Fifth of all, I don't know what you think I can or should do about it. You exchanged a bunch of PMs but no money or stuff, and neither of you (apparently) invested anything in relying on the other to perform a contract. So, as far as I'm concerned, either one of you can walk away. If you found a great deal around the corner from your house for all you wanted and more, should the American seller be able to make you still buy from him? Would that be fair? No.

Sixth of all, believe me when I tell you, I understand it's hard. It's hard to be patient, it's hard to want all the Heroscape all at once and not have it. Be patient. Be patient, and the opportunities will come. I hope next time you find a seller who deserves your business better than this one did.

Seventh, see sixth. It'll be ok.

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  #146  
Old June 26th, 2015, 06:26 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

My understanding is at no point is a seller obligated to ship his figures out at a certain price. "Legal contract" just doesn't seem appropriate here.

Sure, selling the figures off at a better price or suddenly increasing the price of figures can make a seller unlikable, but there isn't anything that can legally be done as far as I'm aware.

I think legality plays a larger role once Paypal funds have been exchanged for a good/service and said good were HS figures.

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  #147  
Old June 26th, 2015, 08:32 AM
Dragon Ruler Dragon Ruler is offline
 
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireemblemrox View Post
My understanding is at no point is a seller obligated to ship his figures out at a certain price. "Legal contract" just doesn't seem appropriate here.

Sure, selling the figures off at a better price or suddenly increasing the price of figures can make a seller unlikable, but there isn't anything that can legally be done as far as I'm aware.

I think legality plays a larger role once Paypal funds have been exchanged for a good/service and said good were HS figures.
If there was an agreement and the seller refused to ship, he has breached the contract. Legally something could be done if the buyer wished to pursue it. Not having read the emails in glaer 7's case, I do not offer an opinion as to whether a contract was reached. However, practically speaking, it is obviously not worth the effort for the amount of money involved (the limited damages) for traders on this forum to seek a legal remedy.

"Selling the figures at a better price or suddenly increasing the price of figures" if done after you and your buyer have reached an agreement, is both legally (breach of contract) and ethically wrong. If a seller does that, he should not be allowed to sell on this site.
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  #148  
Old June 26th, 2015, 08:38 AM
Dragon Ruler Dragon Ruler is offline
 
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post

Third of all, he simply doesn't have to sell to you. I know it's disappointing, but he doesn't have to. There's no law saying he does.

Actually, if there was an agreement reached, legally he does have to sell. Damages can be obtained. If the seller is a business, and this is how he conducts his business, many states have an Unfair Trade Practices Act which would allow punitive damages in addition to contractual damages. Here in Connecticut, the punitive damages under the Conn. Unfair Trade Practices Act would allow the damaged party to receive his attorney fees in addition to the contractual damages.
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  #149  
Old June 26th, 2015, 08:54 AM
glaer7 glaer7 is offline
 
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Thanks a lot guys for all your support, you are amazing!
Seems like a will have to wait more to make my bachelor present :\
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  #150  
Old June 26th, 2015, 09:20 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The page at heroscapers.com says
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dad_Scaper again.
That is all.
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  #151  
Old June 26th, 2015, 09:41 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

DR, not that it matters to me one bit, but I have a hunch that if you looked closely you might find that your statute does not apply in a private sale between two non-merchants. If you would like to continue this discussion, I invite you to look it up and send me a pm.

You're not doing anything but damage, being so aggressive in this thread. Make sure that your local statute applies to private sales and that buyers and sellers cannot rescind before either party executes, and then send me a pm so I can be surprised. But don't bother posting it here, because here it doesn't matter.

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  #152  
Old June 26th, 2015, 10:13 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Dad_Scaper and Aldin, thanks for the time and effort you put into this issue; you went above and beyond (IMO, the question was asked and answered like two pages ago). I'm very happy to know that there are folks in an oversight role who are keeping an eye out for fraud.

Personally I'm all for taking every possible legal action against cheats and liars (and people who never bathe), but I also strongly believe that until the moment when both parties say "done/final" and funds or goods are transmitted or mailed, the deal is just a hypothetical. I can't count the number of times that one of my deals was done and final but the other guy then backed out before either of us actually sent anything. C'est la vie. Move on. Trying to force the other person to make a deal they don't want to make is a waste of energy, and a bit obsessive (this coming from someone who knows what it's like to get too obsessive).

To the frustrated/aggrieved parties, I'd like to suggest that it might be helpful to take a deep breath and reflect over the last couple of pages of this thread, and how they might or might not affect your future transactions with other Scapers who are reading all this. Could there perhaps be sellers who might now be less interested in starting a negotiation with you, worrying that things will get all ugly and hey-somebody-force-him-to-sell-me-his-stuff-now! if the deal falls through at the 11th hour?

Think about your long game. Sometimes it's better to let the one fish go than to make such a big noise about it that you scare the other fish away. Just be the best trader you can be, and don't let sour grapes spoil your future deals.


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Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112, itsbuzzi & more on my trade list

Last edited by Just_a_Bill; June 26th, 2015 at 10:56 AM. Reason: spelling; and said buyers when I meant sellers
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  #153  
Old June 26th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Dragon Ruler Dragon Ruler is offline
 
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
DR, not that it matters to me one bit, but I have a hunch that if you looked closely you might find that your statute does not apply in a private sale between two non-merchants. If you would like to continue this discussion, I invite you to look it up and send me a pm.

You're not doing anything but damage, being so aggressive in this thread. Make sure that your local statute applies to private sales and that buyers and sellers cannot rescind before either party executes, and then send me a pm so I can be surprised. But don't bother posting it here, because here it doesn't matter.
Not sure how I am being aggressive or what damage I am causing. I have used Heroscape and this site to teach my son many life lessons. I was fortunate that a coworker talked me into taking Orc to GenCon years ago for the first time after my initial response to Orc was that there was no way I'm going to Indy in the middle of the summer to play Scape.

Our three GenCon trips have been fantastic. Even the 16 to 18 hour drive, spending time alone with my son has been outstanding. He has also learned a lot in buying/selling and trading on this site. We have purchased several large lots, kept what we wanted, and he has sold the rest in smaller lots.

I don't think it is asking too much for sellers to act in an ethical manner on this site. The legal aspect will obviously not come in to play when a seller backs out, as the damages are not great enough. That doesn't mean the seller's behavior should be condoned.

If you reread my post regarding unfair trade practices, I specifically reference a seller as a business in order to fall under the statute.
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  #154  
Old June 26th, 2015, 10:58 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Here are the two ways in which you are doing damage:

1. Your posts can be read to give false hope to an aggrieved party.

2. Your posts can be read to be a voice of authority second-guessing how I'm approaching this process. As you have posted a couple times now, when I've pointed things out, you know I'm right. And yet you paint me as the bad guy. Well, I want people to come to me when there's a problem, and if they think I don't care the. They are less likely to do so.

3. The position you are (or were) advocating for would discourage, rather than encourage, transactions. If something comes up, before anything has changed hands, people should feel free to walk away. Life happens. And remember, your desired outcome would - or should, anyway - apply to sellers and buyers alike.

The "damage" isn't real, as long as I'm actively controlling people's expectations, but that's what you've put me in the position of doing.

I certainly appreciate your guidance in the generous spirit in which it was given. Now we move on.

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  #155  
Old June 26th, 2015, 11:13 AM
Dragon Ruler Dragon Ruler is offline
 
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Here are the two ways in which you are doing damage:

1. Your posts can be read to give false hope to an aggrieved party.

2. Your posts can be read to be a voice of authority second-guessing how I'm approaching this process. As you have posted a couple times now, when I've pointed things out, you know I'm right. And yet you paint me as the bad guy. Well, I want people to come to me when there's a problem, and if they think I don't care the. They are less likely to do so.

3. The position you are (or were) advocating for would discourage, rather than encourage, transactions. If something comes up, before anything has changed hands, people should feel free to walk away. Life happens. And remember, your desired outcome would - or should, anyway - apply to sellers and buyers alike.

The "damage" isn't real, as long as I'm actively controlling people's expectations, but that's what you've put me in the position of doing.

I certainly appreciate your guidance in the generous spirit in which it was given. Now we move on.
I'm not sure how I paint you as the bad guy. My opinion is that when a buyer and seller reach an agreement, the seller should not be free to change his mind because he received a better offer. To do so is legally and ethically wrong. Apparently others on this site don't feel that way. Fine. I try to teach my son right from wrong. Breaking a contract because you received a better offer is wrong. I am not sure how this is aggressive or damaging. It is factual.

I have explained to glaer 7, in response to his pm to me, that from a practical standpoint, he has no remedy. Overlord cannot be forced to sell to him. Not sure how any of my posts have given false hope to anybody.

Is there something wrong with trying to get sellers (and buyers) to act ethically when they trade on this site?

You are not the only lawyer on this site. Some of us deal with contracts and the breach of same on a daily basis.
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  #156  
Old June 26th, 2015, 11:51 AM
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Re: READ THIS FIRST - Rules for using the trading forum!

@Dragon Ruler

Sure, everyone should behave ethically. I guess that seems so obvious to me that it was difficult for me to see that was the point you were pressing here. The thing is, that isn't how I was perceiving what you have been saying. Reading Dad_Scaper's posts, I don't believe he was seeing it that way either.

I see your posts as claiming that the administrators at HS are failing in an obligation to police trades and traders on this site. Again, it seems obvious to me that we want everyone to behave ethically. That said, we are not the moral police. We can and will do everything we can to prevent fraud. We will not police poor behavior and rudeness.

Poor behavior and rudeness are properly punished by the community. As evidenced by the trade thread in question, the trader has negative feedback and the community would be well advised not to trade with them. I certainly wouldn't. Still, I refuse to tell another adult that they cannot assess their level of risk and reward differently than I assess mine. Another person might find the risk worthwhile.

If your entire point here is that folks should behave ethically, then I think we can all be in agreement and move on. If your point is that the administration is failing in an obligation to punish poor behavior, then you are indeed painting Dad_Scaper as the bad guy.

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He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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