The Book of Penguin (II)

[japes]

I thought it was an AND power. You can rearrange OM and move 4 figures. So not like you are wasting an OM.

My thought was that if Penguin was the only Crime Lord in your army and you put all the OM on him to get the initiative bonus and then OM 1 you move for figures around and put the OM on them so that OM 2 and 3 you have on already mobilized figures. I just like that better than a Crime Ally Crook getting to roll and unblockable attack die on Superman.

[Ronin]

Worth noting that OM rearrangement can be very strong when paired with figures that want OMs for OM placement and initiative, but you don't necessarily want to invest your actual turns in once the round starts. The Jokers and Lokis of the world like that kind of thing.

[Lazy Orang]

This guy's already providing an initiative boost, and I liked that it's requirements were mostly Joker non compatible, but I'd rather not anything that made that pairing stronger. Joker terrifies me.
That being said, really not feeling the auto-wound.

[Arkham]

We can change it to "Unique" if that's an issue. But that's also why I was proposing the idea that you needed 2 of the figures engaged with the enemy figure, as it's a pack mentality. They are ganging up on them.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Worth noting that OM rearrangement can be very strong when paired with figures that want OMs for OM placement and initiative, but you don't necessarily want to invest your actual turns in once the round starts. The Jokers and Lokis of the world like that kind of thing.

As would this very card. Though not in the same way as those. Penguin here doesn't really have much of a use for the OM to take turns once everyone is moved out except to disengage a bunch of guys. He loves them OM to get the initiative bonus but his other power isn't OM dependent. He can Bribe without having a Marker. That's why I liked the idea of getting the Initiative bonus and then OM 2 and 3 could be taking a turn with some of those Criminals you just moved out. The unblockable attack version when only using Penguin as your Crime Lord just means he's loaded up just to move criminals around and roll an unblockable attack. Seems like you no longer need any of those cool criminal figures from Gotham City just a bunch of squad figures to use to move around and roll unblockable attacks dice.

[Arkham]

If the issue is that all your OMs must be on Crime Lords and Masterminds in order to receive the initiative boost, which means Penguin leading Criminals by himself would require all the OMs still on him to get the boost, I get that. A simple fix would be to require 1 OM on Penguin's card to receive the boost, and if there's no OMs on his card, he takes the negative. It was an oversight on my part not realizing in a Penguin w/ Criminals only army, he'd need all those OMs just to get the boost, thus having no way to actually use the Criminals.

CRIME LORD COLLUSION
When rolling for initiative, if there is at least one Order Marker on this card, add 4 to your roll. If there are no Order Markers on this card, subtract 6 from your roll.

We could rename it to something more greedy esq. since it's more about him getting to have some leadership and power.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by japes

As would this very card. Though not in the same way as those. Penguin here doesn't really have much of a use for the OM to take turns once everyone is moved out except to disengage a bunch of guys. He loves them OM to get the initiative bonus but his other power isn't OM dependent. He can Bribe without having a Marker. That's why I liked the idea of getting the Initiative bonus and then OM 2 and 3 could be taking a turn with some of those Criminals you just moved out. The unblockable attack version when only using Penguin as your Crime Lord just means he's loaded up just to move criminals around and roll an unblockable attack. Seems like you no longer need any of those cool criminal figures from Gotham City just a bunch of squad figures to use to move around and roll unblockable attacks dice.

Wasn't trying to say anything too definitive about the nature of the card as a whole, since I haven't been able to keep up with all the twists and turns this design has been taking during this discussion. Mainly just wanted to interject on the value of OM rearrangement, since that was being discussed.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

If the issue is that all your OMs must be on Crime Lords and Masterminds in order to receive the initiative boost, which means Penguin leading Criminals by himself would require all the OMs still on him to get the boost, I get that. A simple fix would be to require 1 OM on Penguin's card to receive the boost, and if there's no OMs on his card, he takes the negative. It was an oversight on my part not realizing in a Penguin w/ Criminals only army, he'd need all those OMs just to get the boost, thus having no way to actually use the Criminals.

We could rename it to something more greedy esq. since it's more about him getting to have some leadership and power.

Well, that's suddenly a lot less interesting, and gets rid of the idea of playing him as part of a conspiracy with other Crime Lords and Masterminds. This guy's changing from a fun way to combine the different aspects of Gotham's Criminal Underworld into one army into a straight up Criminal and Thief leader, and I'm not a particularly big fan of that.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

This design is looking good! One question though: would you consider renaming Crime Syndicate to Criminal Syndicate, since Crime Syndicate is an actual thing and one he is not affiliated with?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Well, that's suddenly a lot less interesting, and gets rid of the idea of playing him as part of a conspiracy with other Crime Lords and Masterminds. This guy's changing from a fun way to combine the different aspects of Gotham's Criminal Underworld into one army into a straight up Criminal and Thief leader, and I'm not a particularly big fan of that.

I playtested how he was before, and it wasn't that interesting or useful. He was mostly a non-factor, and the Insane inclusion didn't work very well in execution. I understand your hesitation, but until this new method is tested, there's really nothing that can be sta ted concretely about whether this design still serves as a nice means to play many Gotham figures together. However, I can't help but feel you're missing a couple key factors here.

First and foremost, this design needs to be able to play well both independently and dependently. I don't want to design a 2nd version of Penguin if it's just usable in 1 scenario(drafting many Crime Lords, Criminals, and some Insane). That's pigeonholing him too much, IMO. He needs a degree of versatility to where he plays well in his own army, while also being easily tied into an overall bigger army with other Crime Lords etc.

Secondly, this version still caters to playing him with other Gothamites. Keep in mind, we're still tweaking things to make sure it works, but that goal has not been lost. You can still draft Penguin with Two-Face II and the planned Black Mask II, and you'll have access to nearly every Batman rogues gallery member, all synergized and playing well together. That has not changed.

With that said, I'm going to take another pass at the most recently suggested power set, and see if I can get it all streamlined and working towards both those goals, then get ready for more testing to be done to ensure it works as intended/desired.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

This design is looking good! One question though: would you consider renaming Crime Syndicate to Criminal Syndicate, since Crime Syndicate is an actual thing and one he is not affiliated with?

Yeah we can revisit the name.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Arkham

If the issue is that all your OMs must be on Crime Lords and Masterminds in order to receive the initiative boost, which means Penguin leading Criminals by himself would require all the OMs still on him to get the boost, I get that. A simple fix would be to require 1 OM on Penguin's card to receive the boost, and if there's no OMs on his card, he takes the negative. It was an oversight on my part not realizing in a Penguin w/ Criminals only army, he'd need all those OMs just to get the boost, thus having no way to actually use the Criminals.

We could rename it to something more greedy esq. since it's more about him getting to have some leadership and power.

What if it were two OM's on any Crime Lord card you control gets you the bonus? Then when he teams up with other Crime Lords at least one #OM & the X on any Crime Lord gets you the bonus while the other two #OM's can go on Criminal/Thief types.

[Arkham]

That could work, but we'd still need Penguin to require 1 on him to obtain the bonus as well, right?

I suppose we could go with something like:

CRIME LORD COLLUSION
When rolling for initiative, if there is at least one Order Marker on this card, add 1 to your roll for each Order Marker on a Crime Lord card or Mastermind card you control. If there are no Order Markers on this card, subtract 6 from your roll.